using mega watt tube amps for guitar (SVT, Bassman 300, Classic 400, etc)

liquidsmoke · November 21, 2012, 12:47:03 PM

Anyone here doing this, even as a power amp? I hate the thought of having to spend a lot of money on retubing and lugging around an 80+ pound amp but the idea of getting one of these beasts has gotten into my head and it doesn't want to leave. Loud as fuck with tons of headroom is the idea. That Peavey 400 is probably pushing it for weight but I think I could tolerate an Ampeg or Fender. The local GC has a Bassman for $900 right now and I don't imagine even post '70s SVTs go for much less than that used. The Crate Blue Voodoo 300 watt model is near impossible to find.

Would two 300 watt cabs with 12" speakers be enough to handle this type of amp so long as the bass isn't cranked?

RacerX · November 21, 2012, 01:13:58 PM

Lumpy · November 21, 2012, 01:24:45 PM

100 watt guitar amp's not loud enough? Hard to believe.

Get another cab if you need more volume.

Nothing wrong with using a bass head for guitar, it can sound burly. But do you really need to spend the money for watts you don't need?

RAGER · November 21, 2012, 01:37:44 PM

You don't need 300-400 watts for guitar. Everybody thanks you in a advance

VOLVO))) · November 21, 2012, 03:38:19 PM

Seriously, more cabs. 2 4x12's will fucking wreck most rooms. I'm pretty certain between the three people that JUST posted in this thread, and myself, that is a fair assessment. You need to get decent cabs. Really, really. Buy two peavey 4x12s. Go do it, now.

clockwork green · November 21, 2012, 04:15:17 PM

It'll sound super glassy and depending on the eq of the preamp, it might sound mostly normal or really off since the highs and mid's will be cutting different frequencies than you're used to.

I might catch flak for this but since you wouldn't begin to approach power tube distortion and bass amps aren't really built to have beautiful, cascading preamp gain you're going to get a super clean sound with this amp...you might as well just get a high wattage solid state amp. I often don't hear a hell of a lot of difference between super clean tube amps and super clean solid state amps and the differences I do hear are usually accountable to the speakers or preamps. Plus if you got a solid state amp you could have 1500-2000 watts for that price range and it would give you an interesting conversation starter. An extra cab is probably the way to go or if you're running two cabs, then an extra head will give you volume and some really cool tone options (like running one of them cleanish and the other dirty, or running one with a bunch of mid's cranked and the other really scooped or even just stereo effects which are always fun)

spookstrickland · November 21, 2012, 04:49:38 PM

100 watts is no where near enough unless you are running through a pa. I would want at least 1000 watts to feel comfortable in any playing situation.

RacerX · November 21, 2012, 05:02:44 PM

Quote from: spookstrickland on November 21, 2012, 04:49:38 PM
100 watts is no where near enough unless you are running through a pa. I would want at least 1000 watts to feel comfortable in any playing situation.

!!

wtf is the matter with you people? Are you deaf?

Jake · November 21, 2012, 05:17:13 PM

What?

VOLVO))) · November 21, 2012, 06:01:53 PM

You people arent playing stadiums, christ. I use two 4x12s, a Model T and Beta lead, and that's getting into "what the fuck why cant i hear the drums" zone. Add in bass, and you'll be loud as fuuuuck.

Metal and Beer · November 21, 2012, 06:05:29 PM

^Exactly. How the hell isn't 100W way more than sufficient?

Liquid, didn't you have a Matamp, then a Laney AOR, then down to a solid state Ampeg? Roll how you shall my man but you're in reverse here (from where I'm lookin')...

spookstrickland · November 21, 2012, 06:14:33 PM

High wattage rigs are what you need when playing with Insanely loud drummers. Plus if you tune down really low you need more wattage something like doubling your wattage for every whole step down you tune. So if you are doing a lot of drop A tuning with a Mother Fucking Loud drummer 1000 watts is not really out of order.

MichaelZodiac · November 21, 2012, 06:33:39 PM

Spook, not everyone on here plays in drop A. And my Acoustic 220 seemed to handle drop A fine when I tuned to it last week. And that thing is about 125W @ 4Ohm.

Jake · November 21, 2012, 07:06:08 PM

No offense, but I thought we evolved past this noise once we landed on this here new fangled site. If anyone is running 100watt amp and it's not loud enough to cut through three drummers, two bass players, and five other guitarists, they're just plain doing it wrong.

Mr. Foxen · November 21, 2012, 09:26:30 PM

Quote from: Jake on November 21, 2012, 07:06:08 PM
If anyone is running 100watt amp and it's not loud enough to cut through three drummers, two bass players, and five other guitarists, they're just plain doing it wrong.

This sounds like the sort of shit people who actually play guitars in bands, that play gigs are record and don't want to sound like shit say.

spookstrickland · November 21, 2012, 09:43:27 PM

The way I look at it, If you are going to "Bring The Heavy"...BRING THE HEAVY!!!

<----------Insert Fat Guitar Player Joke Here LOL

I Bring The Heavy Like a 68 Chevy

liquidsmoke · November 22, 2012, 02:21:34 AM

Currently have a 300 watt handling 2x12 and a 300 watt handling 4x12.

So I'm seriously wondering if these two cabs would be enough to handle a 300 watt tube head so long as the bass wasn't cranked.

Also wondering how many solid state watts they could handle. I am thinking about that route too- lighter and cheaper.

The idea of 300 tube watts(maybe bypassing the preamp) is massive headroom so I can crank super loud and avoid- 1. solid state clipping which sounds like shit and melts amps 2. "tube" distortion which produces a Weedeater like tone too quick considering that I'm not going for a sludgy sound.

The Matamp was okay but I didn't like it enough to keep it. Sold it for almost as much as I paid new.

Still have the Laney GH50. It shits the bed very quick when cranked although that would be great for psych/stoner rock(which I am not playing currently). A GH100 would be better but the GH tone isn't what I need for the band and as a power amp it would still probably shit the bed too quick.

The Ampeg SS150 also shits the bed too quick and in fact it took some sort of major dump at practice a couple months ago yet it tests at 150 watts and the tech said it's fine even though it lost half it's volume. Huge mystery that I don't want to spend any real money on. Otherwise a great amp. Great clean tone for pedals.

My friend's Mosvalve 500 SS power amp(about 380 watts at 4 ohms mono I believe) I am currently borrowing also clips when I get it as loud as I want. It's actually not that much louder than my Ampeg and at least at practice the clip light was on steady and it was smelling weird after about 90 minutes of playing. Not cool. Could be that it's old and on the fritz, could be that 380 SS watts isn't enough, I'm not sure. Our bass player(we do tune in B, spook has a point) is on the edge of clipping with his current power amp and his last one would smell like it was melting and stink up my basement. So I know that with solid state you need tons of power. Not sure that I'd feel comfortable with more than 400 or 500 RMS watts into my cabs if peak would be 800 or 1,000.

Any way you slice it it's looking like I need to spend more money and/or sell and upgrade.

We all wear earplugs(the good kind((because we like our hearing, cymbals are fucking loud as you all know and we play metal)) which means we have to crank louder of course. It's ridiculous, yes. Being able to hear when I'm 60 will be nice though.

When I'm up to the edge of clipping and my band mates can't hear me very well and I can't hear me very well I know I need more speakers and/or power. Yes, two 4x12s would be better than one 4x12 and one 2x12 but not by much.

Wondering if anyone here uses a 300 watt tube amp for guitar.

Wondering if 600 watts of speakers would be enough to handle 300 tube watts.

Wondering how much SS power I could put through my cabs which are rated at 600 watts total.

I don't want to find out the hard way.

I'll borrow my friend's 5150(which is I believe 120 watts) and try it out at practice to see how bad it breaks up at high volume with my distortion pedal running through it's preamp. I'll try it's preamp distortion again as well but it's similar to the Laney GH.

I'm doing what I've got to do. I want somewhat/clear crunchy metal power at loud volumes, not sludgy clipping/breaking up metal power at loud volumes. Don't get me wrong, I like crazy break up tones but that's not what I want for this band. Would love to try an Engl or Mesa but I suspect they would break up more soon than I would like at loud volumes.

Will be out of town without internet access until Friday.

Some of you seem a bit irked(or probably are by now if you read this far

, smile it's okay), well I'm sorry about that although this thread is more about using 300 tube watts for guitar than it is about using a bass amp for guitar, we've been all over that a million times before I know.

Ayek · November 22, 2012, 02:30:29 AM

The absolute worst, thinnest, shittiest guitar tone I ever heard was from some clown playing one of those 300w crate voodoo amps. I'm sure he could've easily sounded just as bad with 1/6th of the power. Be interesting to hear it dialled in well, if such a thing can happen

liquidsmoke · November 22, 2012, 02:34:00 AM

Quote from: Ayek on November 22, 2012, 02:30:29 AM
The absolute worst, thinnest, shittiest guitar tone I ever heard was from some clown playing one of those 300w crate voodoo amps. I'm sure he could've easily sounded just as bad with 1/6th of the power. Be interesting to hear it dialled in well, if such a thing can happen

He probably scooped the mids too much. I'd dial it in as well as possible and then probably just decide to run my Amptweaker TightMetal pedal through it's clean channel and be in tone heaven. It's likely that earth would instantly crumble to bits but I would die with a huge smile on my face.

Super hard to find amp though and probably very pricey.

moose23 · November 22, 2012, 03:44:38 AM

Get more speakers!

Mr. Foxen · November 22, 2012, 05:45:41 AM

Speaker watt ratings bear no relation to how much power they can take before farting or how loud they go. They just tell you how much heat they can take and nothing else.

Using midrange is what allows you to be able to hear stuff, not power.

Edit: just noticed the cabs, are there 150w guitar 12s? Or is it a cab with bass/PA speakers, mixed with a guitar cab?

liquidsmoke · November 22, 2012, 07:44:00 AM

Quote from: Mr. Foxen on November 22, 2012, 05:45:41 AM
Speaker watt ratings bear no relation to how much power they can take before farting or how loud they go. They just tell you how much heat they can take and nothing else.

Using midrange is what allows you to be able to hear stuff, not power.

Edit: just noticed the cabs, are there 150w guitar 12s? Or is it a cab with bass/PA speakers, mixed with a guitar cab?

Eminence Swamp Thangs (gtr) in the 2x12 and the speakers in the 4x12 have no labels, got that cab on Craigslist for cheap. It's 20-25 years old but I'm pretty sure they are guitar speakers.

liquidsmoke · November 22, 2012, 07:52:08 AM

Quote from: moose23 on November 22, 2012, 03:44:38 AM
Get more speakers!

I'm sure that would help. I could pick up a couple random used 4x12s at Guitar Center for pretty cheap although I would think they'd have to be 8 ohm cabs like the 2 I have. Would four 8 ohm cabs make a 2 ohm load? I definitely don't want to haul 4 cabs to gigs though.

Or rather than build on what I have I could ditch what I've got and custom order two 4x12s with 150-200 watt speakers and then perhaps get an 800 to 1,000 watt SS power amp but that would still cost a ton of money.

b00gie van · November 22, 2012, 09:58:20 AM

Quote from: liquidsmoke on November 22, 2012, 07:44:00 AM
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on November 22, 2012, 05:45:41 AM
Speaker watt ratings bear no relation to how much power they can take before farting or how loud they go. They just tell you how much heat they can take and nothing else.

Using midrange is what allows you to be able to hear stuff, not power.

Edit: just noticed the cabs, are there 150w guitar 12s? Or is it a cab with bass/PA speakers, mixed with a guitar cab?

Eminence Swamp Thangs (gtr) in the 2x12 and the speakers in the 4x12 have no labels, got that cab on Craigslist for cheap. It's 20-25 years old but I'm pretty sure they are guitar speakers.

There ya go. Replace the speakers in the 4x12 with something loud like Swam Thangs or Wizards and you'll be quadrupling your perceived wattage.

Lumpy · November 22, 2012, 10:58:40 AM

Yeah, get more efficient speakers. It can make a big difference. Look for speakers that are rated at (oh, say) 100dB and up (100, 101, 102...). You want speakers that are relatively accurate (aka uncolored) and efficient.

Probably the economical way to do this is sell the current cab, and buy a different used cab with the speakers you want. Buying speakers ala carte seems like the expensive way to do it.

Somebody explain the formula for speaker efficiency vs. perceived loudness/amp wattage, I'm not smart enough to remember. But every extra dB of efficiency means your amp will sound louder. The difference between a cab with speakers rated at 96dB and one with speakers rated at 101 dB should be night and day.