using mega watt tube amps for guitar (SVT, Bassman 300, Classic 400, etc)

[Mr. Foxen]

Watts rating isn't the bit that determines if they sound driven, its xmax (clean excursion), which on guitar speakers tends to be 0 or less than 1mm, whatever the watt rating is, because watt rating is just thermal. That is pretty much why guitar speakers have a 'tone' of their own. The 150w Swamp thangs mentioned earlier have an xmax of 0.8mm, which is going to be less that 30w before they are breaking up.

[Lumpy]

Watts rating isn't the bit that determines if they sound driven, its xmax (clean excursion), which on guitar speakers tends to be 0 or less than 1mm, whatever the watt rating is, because watt rating is just thermal. That is pretty much why guitar speakers have a 'tone' of their own. The 150w Swamp thangs mentioned earlier have an xmax of 0.8mm, which is going to be less that 30w before they are breaking up.

Cool, I didn't know that.

That would explain why PA speakers sound clean (long xMax) and bass speakers too. D'oh!

[Jake]

Been using a SVT for geetar since '97, works fine for me, I don't think I ever came across the book for proper amplification

[RacerX]

I'm gonna play an electric ukulele through 2 Mesa 300 bass heads into a 6x18 cab and a Leslie.

[Chovie D]

that pittman book is kind of like one big add for groove tubes.

[clockwork green]

Yeah but it's still a nice "coffee table" book. I like this one better and wish it would go a little further with the breakdowns of the circuits.

[Mr. Foxen]

that pittman book is kind of like one big add for groove tubes.

Ga, I looked at that and thought 'Why the fuck is there a Groove Tubes valve on the front of that?'.

[liquidsmoke]

funny thread 

alot of talk aboot volume, not much aboot tone 

Some. I want my rig to sound as close as possible at band practice level volume(lets say 6) as it does at 3 or 4. So I want lots of headroom and as little amp clipping and speaker breakup as possible.

[mutantcolors]

I have an Acoustic 450 which is like 170watts solid state if I remember right, and i will absolutely destroy eardrums (if the speakers can hold up to the punishment) with that thing. I can actually induce pain with it, I've done it to myself.

Pain.

170 watts.

Just sayin'.

[liquidsmoke]

I think you still wanna look at the wattage rating. If you have 25 watt speakers and power it with a 100 watt head, those speakers will sound driven -- some people like that, you might not. If you have a jiggawatt head, you could blow those speakers.

Also, the sensitivity rating is a bit messy because different companies can use different methods to establish their stats. So if one company sells a speaker that's rated 1dB more efficient than another company's speaker, I would go with the speaker that seems to best match your tone search/less weight/less expensive. Because who knows if they are even on the same page.

It's a few different stats you're juggling, not a big deal.

I don't know if any guitar speakers go over 102 dB efficiency - maybe 103? If you are over 100 that's considered efficient.

IMO.

I would assume your next cab will be heavier, good speakers are usually heavy. (wheels ) You could try neodymium speakers, they are light and efficient but more expensive than ceramic or alnico. I've mentioned before the Lil' Texas speaker, it's light, loud and clean (but expensive). I found a used one for 70 bucks.

Oh yeah big watts for sure.

Full Compass sells the Lil' Texas for $96.75. That is a very light speaker. Are those actually good for metal?

Yeah wheels are nice although they don't help for stairs. Fortunately cabs can be put on their sides so you get that on the floor low end rumble which I love.

Eminence rates their Wizard at 103 db and their Swamp Thang(which I have in my 2x12) at 102 although they are 75 vs 150 watts.

Regarding volume, is a 110-120+ lb Emperor 4x12 going to be significantly louder than say a 90 lb Avatar(12" deep) assuming that they both have the same speakers?

[liquidsmoke]

Watts rating isn't the bit that determines if they sound driven, its xmax (clean excursion), which on guitar speakers tends to be 0 or less than 1mm, whatever the watt rating is, because watt rating is just thermal. That is pretty much why guitar speakers have a 'tone' of their own. The 150w Swamp thangs mentioned earlier have an xmax of 0.8mm, which is going to be less that 30w before they are breaking up.

Help me understand this. Are you saying that Swamp Thangs break up fairly fast? The Eminence guy I emailed said that model is known to be clean and hard to break up.

[liquidsmoke]

I have an Acoustic 450 which is like 170watts solid state if I remember right, and i will absolutely destroy eardrums (if the speakers can hold up to the punishment) with that thing. I can actually induce pain with it, I've done it to myself.

Pain.

170 watts.

Just sayin'.

Guitar? Bass? What cabs/speakers do you play it through?

[mutantcolors]

a single 120 watt 4x12 cab for guitar so I couldn't even blast it w/o fear of decimating the cones

[liquidsmoke]

Do you know the make/model of the cab and speakers?

[liquidsmoke]

Hit me with 4x12 cab suggestions dudes. And cabs to stay away from. Dimensions, construction, and types/thicknesses of wood too if you want. Whatever I get will probably be ordered sight unseen and sound unheard directly from the company that makes it.

If some cheap easy to find used at Guitar Center Crate or whatever cab is loud as fuck with the right speakers I'd love to save some money but I'm assuming I'll have to spend at least $800-1,000 for a quality pair of loaded 4x12s.

Right now the best bang for the buck on a heavy duty 4x12 seems to be the Avatar 'Contemporary' model loaded for $599 + $68 shipping but they do weigh 115 lbs. Yowza. 2 of them would still be a shitload of money.


edit: read that some older Peavey cabs weren't bad and were loaded with G12K85s although that is only a 99 dB speaker.

[spookstrickland]

Hit me with 4x12 cab suggestions dudes. And cabs to stay away from. Dimensions, construction, and types/thicknesses of wood too if you want. Whatever I get will probably be ordered sight unseen and sound unheard directly from the company that makes it.

If some cheap easy to find used at Guitar Center Crate or whatever cab is loud as fuck with the right speakers I'd love to save some money but I'm assuming I'll have to spend at least $800-1,000 for a quality pair of loaded 4x12s.

Right now the best bang for the buck on a heavy duty 4x12 seems to be the Avatar 'Contemporary' model loaded for $599 + $68 shipping but they do weigh 115 lbs. Yowza. 2 of them would still be a shitload of money.


edit: read that some older Peavey cabs weren't bad and were loaded with G12K85s although that is only a 99 dB speaker.

You should check out the Old Fender Roc Pro cabs, they were light weight but had metal grill covers and they did not fart out at all on the low and were pretty damn loud.  I ran one with a Peavey VTX tube head tuned down to B using a Bazz Fuss and it would shake the whole room and was very tight sounding.

[Mr. Foxen]

Dunno what turns up over there, but here, the Hayden 240w cabs are the bargain ones, MDF, which isn't ideal, acoustically dead but heavy (explodes when you drop it it the main problem), loaded with Chinese made Vintage 30s, need wearing in as they are harsh new (and being cheapies, hardly ever have been pushed even when second hand). Marshall mode 4 240w ones are good, also V30 loaded, decent ply, big, not the MF400 though, dark low sensitivity speakers.

[mutantcolors]

Do you know the make/model of the cab and speakers?

It's this with g12 h30s. This photo cracks me up because it reminds me the numbnuts on ebay shipped it to my college apartment instead of my home where the big toys reside.

[liquidsmoke]

Dunno what turns up over there, but here, the Hayden 240w cabs are the bargain ones, MDF, which isn't ideal, acoustically dead but heavy (explodes when you drop it it the main problem), loaded with Chinese made Vintage 30s, need wearing in as they are harsh new (and being cheapies, hardly ever have been pushed even when second hand). Marshall mode 4 240w ones are good, also V30 loaded, decent ply, big, not the MF400 though, dark low sensitivity speakers.

So these are loud and worth buying when cheap?

[Lumpy]

I've heard good things about the Mesa Boogie straight cab (somebody already suggested M B to you in this thread). I'm not sure which speakers come with it -- maybe the EVM-L speakers which are heavy and relatively uncolored, and rated at 100 watts each (I think). Possibly Black Shadow speakers. I think you want an older MB straight cab. They're on Craigs List sometimes for 500 bucks.

Emperor cabs come with Jensen Jets sometimes, some of those are loud but maybe not clean. I dunno. Electric Lightning is a loud but aggressive sounding Jensen speaker. Maybe not clean enough.

I would look on Craigs List, see what's available, find out what speakers are loaded in there, and work from there.

[Mr. Foxen]

Dunno what turns up over there, but here, the Hayden 240w cabs are the bargain ones, MDF, which isn't ideal, acoustically dead but heavy (explodes when you drop it it the main problem), loaded with Chinese made Vintage 30s, need wearing in as they are harsh new (and being cheapies, hardly ever have been pushed even when second hand). Marshall mode 4 240w ones are good, also V30 loaded, decent ply, big, not the MF400 though, dark low sensitivity speakers.

So these are loud and worth buying when cheap?

A V30 loaded 4x12 is going to be loud. The Haydens come up for around £100 sometimes, I grab them to put the speakers into vintage cabs.

[Lumpy]

I've never heard of Hayden cabs, so they are possibly a UK thing.

[Chovie D]

funny thread 

alot of talk aboot volume, not much aboot tone 

Some. I want my rig to sound as close as possible at band practice level volume(lets say 6) as it does at 3 or 4. So I want lots of headroom and as little amp clipping and speaker breakup as possible.

To me, the best sound is an amp breaking up.
The next best is an amp on the verge of breaking up with a pedal in front of it.
This is the sound that is most practical (for me) for live playing.
That puts me in the 40-50 watt area of comfort. I find this more than loud enough for any drummer, plus my amp is always miced.
...this is thru a 4x12.

so, my big mufff or rat sounds great in front of my 120m watt sunn, but its sounds amazing in front of my 40 watt guild or 50 watt basssman. just searing, ...I can control it by backing off a little or go ape at full throttle. If you have clean headroom you can never really get into that "his amp is melting!!!" end of sonic territory..and for me thats where the angels trumpets are.
IN short, clean headroom on guitar is something I dont want.
diffrent strokes for difernt folks tho. I f I wanted a poweful amp with tons of clean headroom , yes, I d look into amps with ultralinear transformers Bassman 130, super twin, old sunns. To me tho, that tone is ice picky and peircing.


On pedal steel, its the opposite for me,. I need amps with tons of clean headroom

I guess this discussion has moved onto cabs tho.

[Mr. Foxen]

I've never heard of Hayden cabs, so they are possibly a UK thing.

Yeah, they are the guitar branch of Ashdown. The cheap ones are made in China, so should be as available there if they have distribution.

[liquidsmoke]

funny thread 

alot of talk aboot volume, not much aboot tone 

Some. I want my rig to sound as close as possible at band practice level volume(lets say 6) as it does at 3 or 4. So I want lots of headroom and as little amp clipping and speaker breakup as possible.

To me, the best sound is an amp breaking up.
The next best is an amp on the verge of breaking up with a pedal in front of it.
This is the sound that is most practical (for me) for live playing.
That puts me in the 40-50 watt area of comfort. I find this more than loud enough for any drummer, plus my amp is always miced.
...this is thru a 4x12.

so, my big mufff or rat sounds great in front of my 120m watt sunn, but its sounds amazing in front of my 40 watt guild or 50 watt basssman. just searing, ...I can control it by backing off a little or go ape at full throttle. If you have clean headroom you can never really get into that "his amp is melting!!!" end of sonic territory..and for me thats where the angels trumpets are.
IN short, clean headroom on guitar is something I dont want.
diffrent strokes for difernt folks tho. I f I wanted a poweful amp with tons of clean headroom , yes, I d look into amps with ultralinear transformers Bassman 130, super twin, old sunns. To me tho, that tone is ice picky and peircing.


On pedal steel, its the opposite for me,. I need amps with tons of clean headroom

I guess this discussion has moved onto cabs tho.

I hear you and for a more heavy rock, stoner, or sludge type sound I'd want the kind of breakup that my 50 watt Laney is great at producing. Right now I've got a distortion pedal I really like. I like the way it sounds at low to medium volumes through just about any amp. High volume breakup from either tube or solid state amps changes the tone in a way I don't like. I need lots of clean headroom. Think classic/power/thrash/whatever metal at extreme metal gain levels but darker, something like that. No ice picky tones, somewhat mid-scooped. Gotta keep the treble under control and preamp treble knobs tend to be good at that. I'll read more about Fenders but for $300 I can get a super powerful rack mount solid state power amp that should do the trick with the right cabs so long as the speakers don't melt. I could run my Ampeg into it or buy an older rack pre for cheap. The 300 watt tube amp thing is not going to be possible if I have to spend more than a few hundred on new cabs. I suspect that the right straight 4x12 with the right speakers might pair up well with my 2x12.