The Jam Room Blog Thread.

[Omlet]

One and half an hour of jamming. It was great. Now we need a vocalist

And I need better fuzzbox than Big Muff.

[VOLVO)))]

12s will do it, Mort. Im gonna switch to Mesa guitar 4x12s for bass.

[mortlock]

12s will do it, Mort. Im gonna switch to Mesa guitar 4x12s for bass.

damn..that sounds pretty cool. I bet that will be sick, of course anything mesa is going to sound awesome. the 2x12 eden is like 35 or 40 lbs lighter than the eden 4x10. never cared about that shit before, but as you all know..it means something to me now. 5" gash and 10 staples later..

[liquidsmoke]

Bass 12s and guitar 12s should sound completely different.. no? This one old prog rock wizard bass player still uses guitar 12s as far as I know though.

[Mr. Foxen]

Different speakers sound different to each other. Diameter has little to no bearing on how speakers sound.

[VOLVO)))]

I mean, you're going to have a hard time blowing up eight twelves of the guitar variety. Long as the numbers are in line with how you're playing.

[mortlock]

Different speakers sound different to each other. Diameter has little to no bearing on how speakers sound.

im not trying to argue, just trying to understand..if diameter has no bearing on how speakers sound, then why are there different size speakers.
I once read that a 10" speaker has a faster attack and response than a 15..giving it a 'punchier' sound. true?? not true??

[jibberish]

Different speakers sound different to each other. Diameter has little to no bearing on how speakers sound.

im not trying to argue, just trying to understand..if diameter has no bearing on how speakers sound, then why are there different size speakers.
I once read that a 10" speaker has a faster attack and response than a 15..giving it a 'punchier' sound. true?? not true??

i'm thinking of an analogy to shed light.

if a boeing 737 has bigger wings than a Cessna two seater and can fly faster, then obviously an F-15 with smaller wings also cannot fly faster than the 737.
ahhhh, different engines/motors. different masses and sizes/ratings of other things. the possibilities are wide.

stereo speakers is only one form of speaker. guitar cab is another. iso-baric subwoofer is another. all can be any size you want.

[mortlock]

I guess ill accept that, but I still feel like the size of a speaker does factor into the equation somewhere. I know cab design, sealed, not sealed. baffles, ports etc.. all matter but when I play through a 2x15 cab, it sounds different than a 4x10 cab. cant just be the cab design. the speakers must have something to do with it..no??

[johnny problem]

I took apart my whole rig and really, really debating on selling my amp.  Effects I'm keeping.  I want something different, something that can go different watts.

[jibberish]

I guess ill accept that, but I still feel like the size of a speaker does factor into the equation somewhere. I know cab design, sealed, not sealed. baffles, ports etc.. all matter but when I play through a 2x15 cab, it sounds different than a 4x10 cab. cant just be the cab design. the speakers must have something to do with it..no??

you bet. generally 15's are weaker if you will. they have more mass and less engine power. 10's with the same size engine would definitely snap more. a 6", to me is the highest definition woofer there is for home stereo BUT no full bottom end.  everything is a tradeoff.

in general, if you have smaller cones, they can be made more rigid too. but small cones don't move much air.  like 3  6" woofers have the same cone area as one 10"
the home speaker people figured out that several different speakers combined was the best way to get full range reproduction.
in generating music, you are generating the sound, so anything goes.

ok, IF those 2 15's have lower resonant frequencies, and have about the same sized engine as one of th 10's, they will be smoother and darker due to slower transient response and ringing at lower frequencies. the 10's, while having maybe less cone surface have 2x the engines snapping those cones.

then the cabinets affect the overall sound some more. there are truly a ton of variables here

[Dylan Thomas]

I guess ill accept that, but I still feel like the size of a speaker does factor into the equation somewhere. I know cab design, sealed, not sealed. baffles, ports etc.. all matter but when I play through a 2x15 cab, it sounds different than a 4x10 cab. cant just be the cab design. the speakers must have something to do with it..no??

you bet. generally 15's are weaker if you will. they have more mass and less engine power. 10's with the same size engine would definitely snap more. a 6", to me is the highest definition woofer there is for home stereo BUT no full bottom end.  everything is a tradeoff.

in general, if you have smaller cones, they can be made more rigid too. but small cones don't move much air.  like 3  6" woofers have the same cone area as one 10"
the home speaker people figured out that several different speakers combined was the best way to get full range reproduction.
in generating music, you are generating the sound, so anything goes.

ok, IF those 2 15's have lower resonant frequencies, and have about the same sized engine as one of th 10's, they will be smoother and darker due to slower transient response and ringing at lower frequencies. the 10's, while having maybe less cone surface have 2x the engines snapping those cones.

then the cabinets affect the overall sound some more. there are truly a ton of variables here

This is pretty accurate, good info.  Good post jib.

Yeah, 15's move more air.  They generally also need more wattage to move that air and really push the deep lows, thus they can sound weak. That's why bass amps generally have more watts than guitar amps, lower frequencies need more power.

10's in my experience are punchier and have more definition.

My favorite sounding bass cab configuration is a 4x10 combined with a 1x15.  Best of both worlds, if you will...

Then it's just a matter of finding the right 10's and 15's for the specific sound you're going for.

[Danny G]

Been playing more guitar all week.

After my hands/forearms/fingers hurting for a few days after Ocean of Stars rehearsals last week, I've realized I need to play guitar more, specifically this music.

Already feeling results. 2 days ago playing a barred A chord was killing me. Now not so much.

Will continue this regimen as much as I can.

I play bass all the time. But I don't want to half-ass playing guitar, especially on my own damn music...!

[Omlet]

During the jam i mentioned before, bassist was playing on Ampeg 810 fridge. Fuck, that cab is absolutely stunning.

And surprisingly lightweight

BTW Sunno))) I sent you the files.

[mortlock]

I stumbled upon baer amps today.. they look cool as fuck. anyone know about this brand.?? somehow they have slipped under my radar until now.  
http://www.baeramplification.com/index.html

[liquidsmoke]

I stumbled upon baer amps today.. they look cool as fuck. anyone know about this brand.?? somehow they have slipped under my radar until now.  
http://www.baeramplification.com/index.html

AMPLIFIERS:
VLK-1   VALKYRIE Bass Amplifier   $1,999.00      

SPEAKER CABINETS:
ML112   ML112 Cabinet   $750.00      
ML115   ML115 Cabinet   $899.00      
ML212   ML212 Cabinet   $999.00   

[Danny G]

8x10s with built in tilt-casters look deceptively bulky, but are really well designed for moving them around

[mortlock]

I stumbled upon baer amps today.. they look cool as fuck. anyone know about this brand.?? somehow they have slipped under my radar until now.  
http://www.baeramplification.com/index.html

AMPLIFIERS:
VLK-1   VALKYRIE Bass Amplifier   $1,999.00      

SPEAKER CABINETS:
ML112   ML112 Cabinet   $750.00      
ML115   ML115 Cabinet   $899.00      
ML212   ML212 Cabinet   $999.00   

no wonder why I like them.. haha. expensive taste. fuck..

[giantchris]

I stumbled upon baer amps today.. they look cool as fuck. anyone know about this brand.?? somehow they have slipped under my radar until now.  
http://www.baeramplification.com/index.html

Not familiar with the brand but those cabs look similar to the FearFul designs and it looks very similar to the Bergantino NV115.  Funny thing is the Bergantino and this Baer are about the same price with similar power handling but have different frequency responses.  I'd go with the Bergantino though personally can't go wrong with Bergs or Epifani (I have an Epifani PS115 SOUNDS AMAZING and is loud as hell will easy dwarf a guitar with a 4x12).  My understanding of that type of design though is that it is comperable in volume to a 4x10 and two of those 2 way 15 setups can be louder then a fridge if the right drivers are used.

[mortlock]

all for not really, way out of my price range.. cant spend 750 one a 1x12..not including tax and shipping. all their stuff is factory direct. ill prolly just stick with ampeg. ive always loved my ampeg 4x10..fuck it..

[khoomeizhi]

your dirt pedals are gonna effect the trebly gnarl of your sound more than the speakers, i'd bet.

[Danny G]

Ocean of Stars sax player came over today. Have two new songs we're working into the set, both more intricate than anything we've done (I started off with simpler songs first)

Wow. This is going to sound amazing once it's all put together. He's an awesome player and picks things up quick. Even the weird shit I'm throwing at him!

#stoked

[giantchris]

all for not really, way out of my price range.. cant spend 750 one a 1x12..not including tax and shipping. all their stuff is factory direct. ill prolly just stick with ampeg. ive always loved my ampeg 4x10..fuck it..

If you read the talkbass threads on the whole crossover thing the 2 way with a 15 and midrange driver setup is supposedly significantly louder then a 4x10 although I can't vouch for this personally.  The nice thing about those kind of cab setups is with the dedicated low end driver they are usually able to produce lower frequencies so for doom/sludge and heavy downtuning you can get the low B and below to sound much clearer. 

I agree with you totally those Baers and the Bergantinos are a little too expensive but if you still wanted to try something like that I'd say the cheapest way to get one of these is the Avatar TB153 and or if you're handy you could make one yourself for much cheaper.  Depending on where you live I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't someone on this board that would be up for building one for you.  Or you could try to find a used Carvin LS1503 which would run $150ish and replace the drivers.  Or a used SWR triad for 300$ish.

[jibberish]

Ocean of Stars sax player came over today. Have two new songs we're working into the set, both more intricate than anything we've done (I started off with simpler songs first)

Wow. This is going to sound amazing once it's all put together. He's an awesome player and picks things up quick. Even the weird shit I'm throwing at him!

#stoked

i'm stoked for you too.   if you want any keyboard/synth pieces parts made for stuff, I basically learned classical style lessons and fuck around with chords mostly. I have a good grasp of arranging and music comp so I can do violin section fills n shit, or cosmic shit....if you want......some day....maybe.....haha.

Gchris, that sounds like a fun project.   the crossover can be as simple as one cap and one coil for a 2 way system.  I like the idea.

if anyone ever remembers the classic Altec-Lansing "voice of theater" bass horn loaded boxes with a big mid/tweet horn. those could get so fucking loud. they were big, but the volume they put out was sick. long time ago, those were everywhere.
I would keep half an eye peeled for someone throwing a pair of those away. those are enough to be a decent club PA alone. they thunder bass too and are pretty efficient. so 200w/ch rms could open them up pretty nicely.

why doesn't anyone use like those class D crown sl1500(iknow that's a TT model, but it's something like that)type stereo PA amp that is like 350w/ch into 8 ohms..500or so into 4 and stable into reactive bass loads. they weigh 10 lbs with that class d magnetic switching voodoo. I don't see any difference between one of those and some big bass amp except way more power for way cheaper. you can get used Godzilla sized power amps for $300 or so  like from craigslist.  like 1000w/ch beasts, from like QSC/peavey/C-V/crown etc.

avoid the offbrands for way too cheap. they are noisy, distorted, with wussy power supplies

anyway, you could punish people more for less $ with big cheap amps. what about a set of DJ PA speakers. I saw these big JBL twin 15's with a horn for highs on CL. they were tall too. a 1000w/ch amp and those for $1000 total I bet could rip the face off of any fridge setup

edit: hey ohhh! ^ there is one mean synth rig too. yowsa!

editz: I never made a demo before. but this is a keyboard thing on some random stock synth patch that I just made up as I went along, then tried to end it nicely once I ran out of ideas. it was an attempt to get a dark bach/debussey feel and I think it worked pretty well for a total fake job.  anyway, this kind of crap...
[soundcloud]https://soundcloud.com/doktordeath/fantasyandfudgeincminor1amp[/soundcloud]

[liquidsmoke]

^ I bought an 800 watt 2 channel power amp for $180 brand new. It won't put the full 800 into two 8 ohm cabs though because each channel is 400 max at 4 ohms. Perfect for two 4s or a monster handling 8.


Changing the subject, some of these cab companies must get insane deals on speakers because sometimes they will sell you the whole deal for less than what you'd pay just for the speakers.