An open letter to venues who exploit their musicians...

[liquidsmoke]

Do y'all play that loud music like Eyehategod and Discharge?
Who likes that garbage? 


But seriously when sludge, hardcore, whatever is done badly and with bad vocals, get me the fuck out of the room. I know that sometimes the vocals are supposed to be tortured and/or bad but..

[Lumpy]

Random thoughts:

"Good bands" versus "bad bands" is often subjective... (clubs should book the "good" bands and promote the show for them, instead of ruining their reputation with "bad" bands)

It was interesting to get to the end, and see who wrote it (and say "who?")

I've played places where, for whatever reason, only a few people have walked in the door on a Saturday night. The club owner got mad at me, asking, "where are the people?" I turned it around on him asking the same thing? "Where are all the people? It's Saturday night and your venue is empty. Doesn't that concern you? What are you going to do about it?"  Usually their answer is to find another band with a larger following. This means the professional bands get run out of the joint in favor of whoever can bring in the most people.

Um, duh? That seems totally logical.

Article seems to be anger coming from a different era, pre-internet/Netflix/video games/"cocooning" era (what they used to call it). Attendance is down for all kinds of shit, including movies.

Also, looks like the author plays "contemporary jazz", one of the least popular musical genres, with album sales in the hundreds. I'm sure the guys in the rockabilly scene are equally pissed. I play noise, an even less popular style of music, and I have no illusions about how club owners should be promoting my music. I would assume it's the same for stoner rock.

[liquidsmoke]

"Good bands" versus "bad bands" is often subjective... (clubs should book the "good" bands and promote the show for them, instead of ruining their reputation with "bad" bands)

Really it's all about fanbases and how well known a band is. No matter how good a band is if they have little to no fanbase in an area a big club can promote the fuck out of them and very few people will show up. If they do little to promote Saint Vitus or BB King or Vanilla Ice some people are still going to show up because of word of mouth and what not.

Small venues and clubs host "bad" bands all the time, more often during the week. They are called local bands. They aren't all "bad" but most of them are mediocre at best.

[MichaelZodiac]

The dude speaks in terms that sound otherworldly to me to be honest. Here either you play for door money or you get a flat fee. Usually you get some free beers and if you're lucky, some food but that's only if you're playing with a touring band. Also, the promotor puts on the show not the venue. Promotor pays the soundguy/venue first, then the bands and if he got some left, keep it as a further investment for the next show. Or be all DIY and give it to the bands (for instance if the promotor asked for a lower flat fee).

[bbottom]

The dude speaks in terms that sound otherworldly to me to be honest. Here either you play for door money or you get a flat fee. Usually you get some free beers and if you're lucky, some food but that's only if you're playing with a touring band. Also, the promotor puts on the show not the venue. Promotor pays the soundguy/venue first, then the bands and if he got some left, keep it as a further investment for the next show. Or be all DIY and give it to the bands (for instance if the promotor asked for a lower flat fee).

I've found that's how it is most places.

The dude that sent wrote that letter is living in another time. It's sad but it's a fact. I don't know how anyone can live off of being a full time musician. Unless you're a studio guy or in a famous band or something

[Jake]

I'm surprised just how cynical you guys are. Granted, you might just say you're "realistic," but the reality is that it's perfectly okay to be discontent with the imbalance of power. I won't poo poo anyone who raises what I think are pretty reasonable questions.

[Chovie D]

i just think this guy is analyzing it from a perspective that most of us here dont share.

I hear the same thing alot from older country musicians, many of whom had to be union in order to be allowed to  even perform.
The clubs actually pay them less now than they did in the 70's. They have some pretty high expectations in my opinion.

In terms of promoting the shows, for touring bands, thats kind of on the club right?
Maybe some of you have experienced this also? Before you tour you spend quite a bit of money sending out promo packs to all the clubs you're gonna play. 8x10 glossy, cd for their jukebox, flyers, posters to hang up, etc. Invariably when you get to the club, you'll find your promo package (that they asked you to send them!) unopened in a pile of other unopened mail behind the bar. so my impression is the club doesnt give a shit abut how many people come to the show.

[AgentofOblivion]

Do y'all play that loud music like Eyehategod and Discharge?
Who likes that garbage?  


But seriously when sludge, hardcore, whatever is done badly and with bad vocals, get me the fuck out of the room. I know that sometimes the vocals are supposed to be tortured and/or bad but..

Exactly.  I can usually appreciate a genre that I'm not a fan of when it's done well.  There's a band here called Everything Went Black that normally isn't my cup of tea but they fucking rock it hard.  But there's also 100 bands like them that are just fucking terrible.  I've played after some of these bands at local shows and they literally cleared the whole place out of people that we didn't bring directly.  It killed any chance we had of winning some new people over.  I mean, 1 minute into their set people started leaving in groups of 4 every 10 seconds.  By their 3rd song the place was a ghost town.  But these guys have a lot of friends that are in popular local bands so they get all these gigs, some for awesome national acts.  Yes, I'm bitter.

I think the guy makes some reasonably logical arguments.  But that aside, it's simple supply and demand.  There's a ton of bands out there that will play for peanuts just because they want to play somewhere that isn't their basement, for whatever reason.  Large supply + little demand = no money.  Whether it is sustainable or not is a different question.  Usually a new band, no matter how much they suck, can draw pretty well for the first few shows if they have supportive friends and family.  By the time that runs dry and the band stops playing shows there are 100 new bands that have started.  

I would love for a venue to get started (and I've considered doing it, though definitely a pipe dream at this point) that had a high standard of music quality and created an awesome atmosphere that added to it.  Different nights could cater to different genres or something, but mostly people knew that if they came there they would see something worthy of their time and money.  Sounds straight-forward enough, but it probably takes quite a long time of building that reputation and time is money.  I'm guessing this type of venue is rare because it's easier to take the other path and there's just not enough great local bands in many regions to support it.

[Chovie D]

Im gonna put some of it back on the bands and say this;

alot of bands have a mindset that its okay for their fanbase to consist ENTIRELY of their family and friends, and still expect to get paying gigs.
sorry but your never gonna have enough friends to make it profitable for the club to pay you wht you think you deserve.
set your sights on expanding your fanbase to beyond people you already know and do the work necessary ot make that happen. THEN you can command a fee.
til then..yes IM sorry, be grateful the club is letting your horrible hobby band play for your friends and parents I guess.

also. I kinda think pay is for professionals not hobbyists or amatuers.
(which means I shouldve never gotten paid I guess)

[Lumpy]

More random thoughts...

If there are 50 people watching your show (they are there to see you) and you didn't get paid, then you got ripped off.

Door guy gets $50, sound guy gets $50. Yes, they gotta get paid before the band, because the club needs them to show up every night, reliably. 20 people paid $5 to see your band? Break even. (these may be old numbers... might be more like $100 each nowadays).

If nobody comes to see your set, who is supposed to pay your band? The club owner, from the bottom of his heart? LOL. Don't get me wrong, it does happen. But you can't keep the doors open, doing that. And keeping the doors open is more important to the club than paying your band.

A friend of mine is an independent promoter. He said he looks for opening bands who can bring in 20 more people (20 people who didn't only come to see the headliner). If you can't get 20 people to watch your band, you need to accept the idea that you're not gonna make money with your band, and don't be mad at promoters. If the only audience you have is friends and family, you're in this category.

[spookstrickland]

Problem is, Bars got lazy and realized they could charge huge door fees and make money.  In the old days, they booked good bands and gave them a percentage of the take that night.  The drunk driving laws have also taken their toll on live music in bars.

[RacerX]

Eh, fuck playing bars if they won't pay.

There is a robust house/squat/warehouse scene in my city.

[Chovie D]

how much do squats pay?

[Lumpy]

On topic? 35-year old semi-legendary club Maxwell's in Hoboken is for sale ($650,000). You won't own the building, just the license and name, etc. Rent is 10-15k per month.

Cause of death: rising rents and "a changing nightlife culture where high-def TVs are valued over live rock 'n' roll," according to booker and co-owner Todd Abramson.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2013/08/legendary_hoboken_club_maxwells_can_be_yours.php

I see Hollywood Alley in Phoenix (Mesa?) AZ just closed (Stoner Hand of Doom was there one year).

"They just crunched the numbers, and I think where every [other] time they decided to give it another go for another six months, they finally made the decision to pull the plug," Tynor says.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/uponsun/2013/07/hollywood-alley-closing-mesa.php

[Chovie D]

once I was in a band that could fill the local club here...the tractor. those gigs paid very well.The bar made money, the bartenders made alot of money, everyone was happy.
I played the same place many other times with other bands that could not even come close to filling it and I wasnt paid well for those gigs. to me this made sense for everyone.

[black]

how much do squats pay?

People have been pretty good with passing the hat or letting bands put someone at the door and collect for the band.



That and bj's from train hopper crusties.

[Chovie D]

I guess you could be like MODC and play vegan co-ops for bread crusts and hummus.

[Pissy]

On topic? 35-year old semi-legendary club Maxwell's in Hoboken is for sale ($650,000). You won't own the building, just the license and name, etc. Rent is 10-15k per month.

Cause of death: rising rents and "a changing nightlife culture where high-def TVs are valued over live rock 'n' roll," according to booker and co-owner Todd Abramson.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2013/08/legendary_hoboken_club_maxwells_can_be_yours.php

I see Hollywood Alley in Phoenix (Mesa?) AZ just closed (Stoner Hand of Doom was there one year).

"They just crunched the numbers, and I think where every [other] time they decided to give it another go for another six months, they finally made the decision to pull the plug," Tynor says.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/uponsun/2013/07/hollywood-alley-closing-mesa.php

Damn. We played that SHoD.

[Pissy]

Problem is, Bars got lazy and realized they could charge huge door fees and make money.  In the old days, they booked good bands and gave them a percentage of the take that night.  The drunk driving laws have also taken their toll on live music in bars.

I'm not so sure I agree with the bar owners getting lazy thing. Most of the ones I've played have been fans of the heavy and got into the biz, because they loved the music, the vibe and bars generally can make money. If their open seven days a week... Three bands a night...  Uh 21 good bands is really tough to find. That's not laziness. So cover bands it is!!!

The DUI thing is spot on though. A cab ride for me to get home from the milestone would cost me $50 and I'd have to leave my car in the hood, where it would last all of 20 minutes after the last dude left the property.
  I'd pay it if it was a show for the ages (Melvin's in The Milestone-CHOICE!!!) but that's once every ten years or so.

[liquidsmoke]

Problem is, Bars got lazy and realized they could charge huge door fees and make money.

When was this? Big shows are usually overpriced but when bars try to charge too much people don't go unless the bands are big name. Where I live people just won't show up for underground/local heavy rock/metal shows that are more than 5 or $7. High On Fire or Melvins and they can(and have to) charge more but I'm not talking about that level of success. I think part of it is the economy and part of it is everyone sitting on their asses at home on the internet like I am right now or watching Netflix. In my defense I just got off work and am planning on going to bed early so I can get up early and take a 90 minute bicycle ride before I get to the dozen things I have to do before band practice. 

[eyeprod]

Yeah but some of us play music because we want to and money has little to do with it. The touring band needs to make money in order to continue the trip. People like us can afford to leak a few bucks to make a local gig happen. Maybe we'll make something at the end of the night; cool but not necessary in most cases. I don't see much difference if I were to rent a generator and make an outdoor party happen. Do it for fun and adventure. I'm just not in a position to demand or expect more than a busker gets for his or her time. Even though my band and I can perform at a high level, I've got a day job that I like so why give a fuck about how much I can make playing music? It's a nice place to reside as a lifer.

[liquidsmoke]

^ I feel the same way.

The idea of some rich venue owner making loads of cash off my band and bands on the same level does bother me but since that is basically impossible I'll not let it. If we were to tour(probably never going to happen) and got next to nothing for a gig that 100+ people attended because "man well I had to pay the soundguy and the door guy and security and you know pad my retirement fund with the drink money because I'm not doing this until I die", yeah, that would suck balls.

[eyeprod]

Not to mention that most of us play sets of 30 to 45 minutes. That's easy compared to some lame cover band that is obligated to play multiple long sets and endure random requests. Uggh

[liquidsmoke]

Being in a cover band in the '60s or '70s when popular music was better and the money was good could have been a great gig. You know, compared to customer service or stocking shelves or even some higher paying jobs actually. You wanna hear Inna-Godda? Okay!

[AgentofOblivion]

In semi-related news, just tried a cover of Sunshine of Your Love last night and used an Earthquaker devices fuzz...holy hell it sounded badass.