The Jam Room Blog Thread.

[Lumpy]

So many of these people know the gear in and out and all the programming tech shit but all they can do is bleep bloop.  Nothing musical. 

Post of the week.

[liquidsmoke]

Instead of double or quad tracking guitars for that fuller heavier sound is it possible to achieve a similar thing simply by copying them and offsetting them ever so slightly?

[everdrone]

no, not possible as it will never sound the same as recording 4 guitar tracks.  I have tried that many times.  nothing sounds like anything else.

I prefer dual tracking though with two different cabs/mics for each track though which is similar to what your question is about. it sounds huge and not that muddy that way to my ears.

[Jake]

Well, if you record a direct track the same time as a mic'ed track, there are certainly ways to fatten it. I've done it with amp simulation software or reamping the dry signal back into something else mic'ed.

[Corey Y]

In my experience, multiple tracks of an instrument only tend to fatten up the sound if they're different/complimentary to each other. A bunch tracks of something almost identical just makes mud and lots of phasing issues. If I'm going to double track something with the exact same rig/settings, I usually at least use a different mic or position to give it some variance.

[spookstrickland]

I read that Tom from Boston used to re-tune and pan is his guitar for every track, having them just slightly different pitch and in a different place in the spectrum.

[mutantcolors]

Instead of double or quad tracking guitars for that fuller heavier sound is it possible to achieve a similar thing simply by copying them and offsetting them ever so slightly?

It just don't work that way amigo, the nuances between tracks is part of the magic. Even the extreme techy dudes who need surgical precision can't pull that trick.

Even the slightest little variance will make a huge boost in your sound, like rolling your tone knob back to 7 on the rhythm track, etc etc.

[liquidsmoke]

Makes sense. Somewhat different tone plus another run through. I can use a different amp, cab, and mic. I find tracking guitar to be exhausting but it should be worth the effort.

[Danny G]

I usually track two separate rhythm tracks to thicken it up.

But in a pinch have gotten good results using two diff mics (one close, one 12-18" away) on two separate tracks to get a thicker tone from a single run through

[mortlock]

So many of these people know the gear in and out and all the programming tech shit but all they can do is bleep bloop.  Nothing musical. 

Post of the week.

that's pretty much 95% of the 'noise' artists out there. haha

[liquidsmoke]

I usually track two separate rhythm tracks to thicken it up.

But in a pinch have gotten good results using two diff mics (one close, one 12-18" away) on two separate tracks to get a thicker tone from a single run through

I have two tracks recorded now from different mics side by side but only one play through so when panned hard left and hard right it still sounds almost like one track center. It is thicker than one though because of the tonal variation of the mics.

[Pissy]

I feel the same way when I go in music stores.  Must attract a certain type of employee.

Record stores too. God forbid you go inside wearing the wrong t-shirt.

I can't stand the record store snobbery.  There's a great record store here that I will not go in because the owner is such a social douchebag.  They don't open the store until 1:00pm so quickly running in and picking something up on my lunch hour is out of the question.  Fucking douchebag record store owners.

[lordfinesse]

I can't stand the record store snobbery.  There's a great record store here that I will not go in because the owner is such a social douchebag.  They don't open the store until 1:00pm so quickly running in and picking something up on my lunch hour is out of the question.  Fucking douchebag record store owners.

I don't mind him. I will say that he has had way more conversation with Devo than he ever has with me. Courtney could probably say the same.

[jibberish]

Instead of double or quad tracking guitars for that fuller heavier sound is it possible to achieve a similar thing simply by copying them and offsetting them ever so slightly?

shifting a track is adding a delay, a super clean delay

you can dupe a track 3-4 times and then just push them around in the DAW until you get a crazy echo sound.  one drum track duped 2x and the dupes moved around is sick. and you pan the dupes around in th stereo field too to really make it neato

the reason double tracking is thicker is due to chorusing. you dont do both takes exactly the same, exactly in phase etc, so it sounds thicker

[jibberish]

So many of these people know the gear in and out and all the programming tech shit but all they can do is bleep bloop.  Nothing musical.  His sales guy that works for him seems to be alright but he's an ex GC employee so I'm always a bit guarded.  And he's a total wheeler dealer.  Does know his shit and can play.  We text sometimes.  He's been trying to get me into modular, probably just to sell me his cast offs. Next time he does I will let him know why he hasn't seen me in the shop.

Let's break out some guitars or drums mother fucker.   Oh can't play? Like I thought.

I don't collect vinyl.  I'd prolly punch somebody.

it is your money. the true dude is the dude that helps out after the sale. you know exactly what I mean.
your money is boss. it can go elsewhere

everyone starts out being bleep bloopers.

rager, I have a first keyboard song for you to learn. it is the closest thing to riffs I can think of.  1st song in well tempered Klavier by bach. there are about a thousand instructional videos teaching the prelude in C major (it is the rhythm part to Gounod's "Ave Maria" but we don't do the opera singing part, just the cool repeating riffs)

"who the fuck is this gonad dude?"  <-there I would have posted this as a response, so I will anyway haha

[spookstrickland]

Instead of double or quad tracking guitars for that fuller heavier sound is it possible to achieve a similar thing simply by copying them and offsetting them ever so slightly?

the reason double tracking is thicker is due to chorusing. you dont do both takes exactly the same, exactly in phase etc, so it sounds thicker

that reminds me I was talking to this guy and he was telling me that "pro's" double everything and the real pro's do it so well you don't know it's been doubled.  I said if you don't know it's doubled what's the point, he says it makes it thicker, I said if it sounds thicker than that means you can tell LOL  maybe I'm missing something but I don't think he got it.

[jibberish]

Instead of double or quad tracking guitars for that fuller heavier sound is it possible to achieve a similar thing simply by copying them and offsetting them ever so slightly?

the reason double tracking is thicker is due to chorusing. you dont do both takes exactly the same, exactly in phase etc, so it sounds thicker

that reminds me I was talking to this guy and he was telling me that "pro's" double everything and the real pro's do it so well you don't know it's been doubled.  I said if you don't know it's doubled what's the point, he says it makes it thicker, I said if it sounds thicker than that means you can tell LOL  maybe I'm missing something but I don't think he got it.

8D


ok, I believe the cutoff is the line between the track sounding like one "voice" vs sounding like something done twice.
the goal being one rich and thick and chocolaty voice built from the trickery of the superior blend which doesn't come off like it was 2 tracks, just one killer track.

Also, if you compare the initial single track to the doubled track, yes you could tell.
but before the album is released no one but the studio folks will hear that sub assembly.
if you just bought the album, you wont know at the get-go that that thick track was actually doubled. you weren't told and the player/singer was pro and really duped that performance like a pro heh.

[jibberish]

in high school, I heard god's own chorusing for the first time. y'all can experience this amazing shit for yourselves also.
dead serious. I had no idea about anything guitar/effects/etc at that time either

where? cleveland orchestra live at severance.
the violin section. watching 30 bows moving in near-perfect unison.
that rich thick buzz that comes from that all live is like nothing else I have ever heard.
that shit cant even be recorded, there is so much going on.
recordings are very nice, but not pure 30 chorused violins. your ear and brain has to get that shit directly to actually hear it all.
it blew me away, and I had no idea wtf was up, walking in there that day.

I think huge super pro choirs possess extreme power over us because the parts are layered phatt with so many people singing.

[MichaelZodiac]

We had our first show lined up for the 18th of November but wanted to play sooner if the opportunity would come. I got a call today from a good friend who's putting up a show for a touring Chinese punk band and she asked if we wanted to play. Since I don't really care where we play or with who, that'll suits us just fine. It's on the 30th of September so a bit sooner but what the hell.

[johnny problem]

Fucking crackheads in my area.  $1100 for a JCM800 combo. The fuck is that?

[liquidsmoke]

shifting a track is adding a delay, a super clean delay

you can dupe a track 3-4 times and then just push them around in the DAW until you get a crazy echo sound

Pushing them around ever so slightly is what I'm curious about. We haven't loaded everything into the computer yet or we would try it. Not looking for crazy delay, just that double tracked thick sound when things are off just enough. If pushing the tracks apart ever so slightly in Protools could get that result I wouldn't do another rhythm take for each song. Google search time..

[jibberish]

shifting a track is adding a delay, a super clean delay

you can dupe a track 3-4 times and then just push them around in the DAW until you get a crazy echo sound

Pushing them around ever so slightly is what I'm curious about. We haven't loaded everything into the computer yet or we would try it. Not looking for crazy delay, just that double tracked thick sound when things are off just enough. If pushing the tracks apart ever so slightly in Protools could get that result I wouldn't do another rhythm take for each song. Google search time..

worth a try.

can you add effects in the daw like some chorusing? are there any "swing" features that can slightly warp the timing? does your daw have a pitch shifter?
I wonder if nearly inaudible additions of some of these types of distortions would do the trick. you can make as many dupe tracks as you want and very slightly taint each one a different way.

i'm interested in your results, as I do this kind of shit to try and cheat my way out of another take. that's how I found my zero latency delay trick with dupe tracks.

[RacerX]

Wife's at her family reunion, so I've set up the big rig for the weekend.

It's been over a year since I plugged it all in, so gonna have some fun...

[Angostura]

It's a great trick I've used often. Duplicate track, zoom in, shove it over just a touch, pan each hard opposite. Not only does it make the guitar sound huge, but it gives a wide open space in the middle of the mix for everything else.

Our tune "march into darkness" features this technique.

I have a Waves doubler plug-in that can de-tune and shift. It can get pretty wicked sounding when you start  de-tuning. You hear the original and the shifted notes fighting it out. It's cool, and I'm gonna find a use for it somewhere.

[liquidsmoke]

It's a great trick I've used often. Duplicate track, zoom in, shove it over just a touch, pan each hard opposite. Not only does it make the guitar sound huge, but it gives a wide open space in the middle of the mix for everything else.

Our tune "march into darkness" features this technique.

Makes sense. I don't imagine it sounds the same as double or quad tracking but we'll try it. If it sounds huge that will be awesome. Hear you on hard panning too.