The Jam Room Blog Thread.

[JemDooM]

When you guys speak of more guitar tracks do you mean the number of mics on the rig? Or layering more newly played guitar tracks on top?

[Discö Rice]

The term generally means overdubbing.

[eddiefive10]

I have no speaker cabinet and no money this is my sad sad blog thank you good day!!

[black aspirin]

When you guys speak of more guitar tracks do you mean the number of mics on the rig? Or layering more newly played guitar tracks on top?

My isolation cab has two mic mounts inside, so I started out doing it that way.  But now I've been using one mic, not moving it, and just changing the amp settings for the next track that I record so I can blend the two.  It seems to be working a bit better.

Something still has to be very wrong, though.  I don't understand how I can hear it sounding great in the headphones, yet once it's recorded, it sounds WAY thinner and 'muffled'...and that's not because of where it's sitting in the mix.  I can listen to the track all by itself, and it doesn't sound anything like what I heard through the headphones.

There must be a very basic, dumbass mistake I'm making, LOL.

[AgentofOblivion]

Maybe record something else (vocals or some other rig) using the mic and see if the same thing happens.  Slowly swap things out and figure out if you're setting something up wrong in the software.  Or maybe your headphones have some amp/EQ and it makes things sound different than what they really are?  Is your after-recording playback through the headphones or some other speaker system?  I wish I could hear what you mean but I'm not sure how you could capture it.

[JemDooM]

Disco I wondered if they meant over dubbing more guitar or using time delay etc on different mic tracks...

That sounds very annoying aspirin!!

I'm not sold on the guitar overdubbing thing to be honest. A couple of the doom bands in my area I know track the guitar as much as 10 times for that wall of sound effect, it does sound awesome initially but after a while it can sound quite dead, it crosses my mind that it's not the real sound, or anything like how it'd sound live, I also think that the more layers of guitars there are the less clarity and reality there is, those real sounds you get from the wood and fingers and strings, the energy in that one take, the feedback and sounds from the amp etc all gets lost in a massive soul less wash of 'heaviness'. When I record my demos there's only ever one guitar track and I'm happy with how big and full it sounds. We're in the studio for 5 days on Thursday recording the album, it's an hour long so I doubt I'll get time to layer guitars anyway but I'll think about it and discuss it with the others if there's time, I was thinking of potentially two tracks 1 using a different guitar which has a completely different sound to the other, I know it compliments the other as we used to have those two guitars in the band, but like I said I don't think I'll feel the need anyway...

[Omlet]

BBE sonic maximizer can do miracles. But i dont use anything like it in my primitive black metal project, just a stereo enhancer plugin from my DAW software.

[Cursed71]

Try a super heavy fuzz tone for the base tracks, and a cleaner low mid tone for the overdubs.

[black aspirin]

Man, I'm at my wit's end.  Just tried to simplify and re-record the bass track for the song I'm working on now, tonight...adjusted the amp settings, the bass guitar knobs, and everything sounded great in my headphones.  Tons of clarity, good distortion, and good blend of bass/mids/treble.   Set the mix so when I was recording, I could hear just enough of the drums/guitars, plus the bass I was trying to record.  Set the recording level so the bass maxed out at -5db to allow for headroom later...and when I played the mix back, I couldn't hear the bass at all.  Then I boosted it up above 0db in the recorded mix, and could still barely hear it. 

What the fuck?  I know, instinctively, that I must be making some basic, dumbass mistake...but I can't figure it the fuck out.  I think I'm gonna post on Craigslist...ask someone who knows what the fuck they're doing to come over, pay them for their time...to teach me what stupid mistake I'm making.  This is ridiculous.

Here's what I have so far.  The bass and guitar tones are fucking WEAK compared to what my headphones signify.

https://soundcloud.com/black-aspirin-1/equilibrium-export-20

[moose23]

Have you tried using a different set of headphones?

[Ancient]

When you guys speak of more guitar tracks do you mean the number of mics on the rig? Or layering more newly played guitar tracks on top?

My isolation cab has two mic mounts inside, so I started out doing it that way.  But now I've been using one mic, not moving it, and just changing the amp settings for the next track that I record so I can blend the two.  It seems to be working a bit better.

Something still has to be very wrong, though.  I don't understand how I can hear it sounding great in the headphones, yet once it's recorded, it sounds WAY thinner and 'muffled'...and that's not because of where it's sitting in the mix.  I can listen to the track all by itself, and it doesn't sound anything like what I heard through the headphones.

There must be a very basic, dumbass mistake I'm making, LOL.

Man I haven't been here in months but I'm bored at work hahahaha

Your problem is called phase. When you have multiple guitar tracks recorded you have to make sure the peaks and valleys of each track are synced up otherwise they cause cancellation. Solo just the guitar tracks one at a time, you should notice the first track sounds great and then as you add more if they don't make it sound louder and bigger then that track is out of phase. Zoom in as far as you can go on any section of the two tracks and move the second (or third whatever) track forwards or backwards to line up the peaks of the wave file. That should fix the problem.

As far as the bass tracks are concerned look up side chain compression and side the bass with the kick drum. What this basically does is compresses the bass as the kick hits so you can crank up the bass (in the bass eq dip at 63 and 1k and boost at 250) but not kill the kick drum. This also clears up headroom as the low end can fill up alot of sonic space if the bass and kick drum arent stepping out of the way of each other. First and foremost don't forget to check the phase on each overdub you do for the bass as well.

Phase problems are the number one headache for newer mixing engineers.

[black aspirin]

Man I haven't been here in months but I'm bored at work hahahaha

Your problem is called phase. When you have multiple guitar tracks recorded you have to make sure the peaks and valleys of each track are synced up otherwise they cause cancellation. Solo just the guitar tracks one at a time, you should notice the first track sounds great and then as you add more if they don't make it sound louder and bigger then that track is out of phase. Zoom in as far as you can go on any section of the two tracks and move the second (or third whatever) track forwards or backwards to line up the peaks of the wave file. That should fix the problem.

As far as the bass tracks are concerned look up side chain compression and side the bass with the kick drum. What this basically does is compresses the bass as the kick hits so you can crank up the bass (in the bass eq dip at 63 and 1k and boost at 250) but not kill the kick drum. This also clears up headroom as the low end can fill up alot of sonic space if the bass and kick drum arent stepping out of the way of each other. First and foremost don't forget to check the phase on each overdub you do for the bass as well.

Phase problems are the number one headache for newer mixing engineers.

Thanks for the advice (especially on the bass EQ/compression)...but it's not a phase problem.  Any individual guitar/bass track I record follows this pattern.  Tone sounds good in the room, tone sounds good in the headphones, record it...and it sounds like I stuck a mic in a trashcan somewhere in the same room and hit record.

I'm gonna pull out my old Roland digital recorder and see what happens with it.  If that doesn't change things, then by this weekend I'll ditch the isolation cab and try sticking a mic in front of my normal cabinet.  

[AgentofOblivion]

Answer me this Aspirin: 

We know you set it up to sound good with headphones while you record.  When you listen back and hear the problem are you listening back with the same headphones or a different set of speakers?

[black aspirin]

Answer me this Aspirin: 

We know you set it up to sound good with headphones while you record.  When you listen back and hear the problem are you listening back with the same headphones or a different set of speakers?

Both.

I have some M-Audio monitors, but I also set up some little speakers to my computer so I can listen to playback through a variety of sources. 

Thanks for entertaining my questions, people.  I'm sure some here are already sick of me, haha.

[liquidsmoke]

I know that guitar overdubbing is very commonplace these days but the idea gives me a headache. We used 3 mics for my guitar tracks and I'm fine with that. Actually the room condenser picked up too much string noise from my fingers because my amp wasn't at rehearsal volume levels so we aren't even using that track.

[RAGER]

So last night I went to my girl's boss' house for a pre Oktoberfest party.  Big huge fucking house with big huge fucking deck and big ass pool and blah blah blah...  Anyways they had a band there and the guitar player had one of these.



Hand built by Conrad Sundholm.  This dipshit barely knew anything about it.  I asked if it was solid state or tube rectified.  He assured me it was a tube amp.  yeah no shit.  That's not what I asked.  fuck.

[RAGER]

I been eyeballin an Alesis Micron and a Native Instruments Maschine.

[black aspirin]

FINALLY made a breakthrough last night with the stupid guitar recording issues.  I won't go through all the details, but I spent about 45 minutes straight with the headphones on, tweaking the amp sound and moving the mic all over the place to find the best possible tone that I could.  Also learning more about how to set the levels properly to still leave some headroom, but capture as much as I can with the initial take.

The key for me is to almost forget about what the tone sounds like in the room, and focus on what the recorded sound is going to be.  I used a lot more mids, and a lot less bass in the recording than I would if I were playing in the room (the bass issue obviously being exacerbated by the 'A' tuning).

When all was said and done, I had a single guitar track that was louder and clearer than the other 4 I had previously stacked on each other to get something even listenable.

It amazes me just how much of a difference even an 1/8" movement of the mic placing can make in the sound.  I just made another attempt at a decent bass recording, and although it was a bit better than my last one...still sucks.  But I'll get there.

Thanks to everyone who offered advice...some of it did pay off for me.

[Danny G]

Good to hear you made progress!

As for guitar recording and overdubbing, I only use 2 tracks for rhythm at most. Pan them noticeably left/right but not totally.

Leaves space for the embellishment tracks.

Sometimes a single mic but also get great results with two mics, one up close and one about a foot to 18" from a speaker. Pan them left and right to a point and sounds very good.


Sent from a can on some string using Tapatalk

[JemDooM]

Excited studio report!

We spent atleast 10 hours yesterday getting the drums down which was a mammoth task! Watching my drummer trying to get the hits and tempos perfect for that length of time was pretty damn stressful, like watching someone play the knife/hand game for 10 hours! Day two my guitars, Chris our engineer instantly said my strings were too small and restrung with 11-70, we discovered that my Laney 4x12 is dead, he replaced it with his Green 4x12 and insisted on combining my trace head with his Model T, I cannot tell you how excited I am about that! There are so many awesome amps sitting around here! Iv just finished 55 mins of riff after around 8 hours, double tracked which was gruelling but added a lot, Chris has sat infront if me the entire time listening and watching my every move which was a great help! It was both extremely tricky and extremely awesome, iv never been so determined and patient in my whole life!! I was shaking with adrenaline for some of it! Bass now, it's almost 11pm! Vocals and leads tomorrow, mixing mastering the day after! This is Jon Conans newly built studio with on sight accommodation which is awesome, there are apple and plum trees outside and we are surrounded by fields

Loads of tech photos to come!

[black aspirin]

Awesome report, Jem!  Can't wait to hear it. \m/

[Corey Y]

Sounds nerve wracking, but still fun, can't wait to hear the result Jem.

[Mr. Foxen]

During yesterday's set, someone approached the front of the stage and advised me "You need to stand further away from your amps, there is quite a lot of feedback". Good observation, maybe not enough thinking it through though. Dude who got on the stage and kicked the plugs out of the power socket, fuck you. Telling me I'm too loud whilst my amps are off is retarded too.

[MichaelZodiac]

First rehearsal with a new drummer was today being my first rehearsal in a loooong ass time. I also didn't play since July so it was sloppy but fuzzy Being it was just the 2 of us we quickly settled on a jam and started adding stuff to it. Really easy, no strange looks to each other. A bit of relief after my previous band. I think we're gonna play together some more soon, hopefully next week. If everything works out between us, we'll look for more members but for now just us is nice.

Looking forward to those tech pics Jem!

[JemDooM]

That's awesome Michael! Sounds like you found someone you click with, very rare imo

Foxen I can't believe that haha, how rude!! Reminds me of the time a sound guy told me right before we were about to play that I might want to turn down my gain to make it less muddy, presuming that I must be a moron who needs help not to sound muddy

Day 3 in the studio, John has been destroying his voice one bellowing scream at a time for most of the day he sounds terrifying, most of the leads down, looks like we'll be completely finished by tonight and get a full day for mixing and mastering tomorrow! Went to sleep at 3am last night with swollen eyes and riffs ringing in my head then up 6 hours later, I'm looking forward to a day when I can rest and not be on full on mission mode for every second of every hour!