How Much to Produce Album Independently?

[Ombrenuit]

This has probably been asked before but I couldn't find it. How much should we invest to produce an album independently. That is, the cost of recording in a studio and to put out a professional product.

I've seen a lot of liberal numbers thrown around the internet like $5,000 - $10,000 and two weeks studio time.  Our songs are well rehearsed and there's 40 min of material (8 songs). We were aiming a budgeting $2000 to $3000 and a week's studio time. That's about $250 to $375 a song for tracking, mixing, and mastering or $50 - $75 a minute of audio.

We're going for a vintage sound and we'd prefer to record analog.

Is this a realistic budget, or is there a big enough jump in quality that $5000 should be considered?

Basically we want to go big or go home.

*edit* We're based in Cincinnati, OH. Any studio recommendations within driving distance greatly appreciated (Chicago, Nashville, etc.)

[neighbor664]

Make a trip to the farmer's market before hitting the studio. You can load up on independant produce there.

[Ombrenuit]

Make a trip to the farmer's market before hitting the studio. You can load up on independant produce there.

As someone who has worked at a farmer's market - I can attest to this.

[Jake]

I have no other advice besides do not be afraid of digital. It may save you a lot of money (and time) in the long run without any real noticeable sacrifice in analog "warmth."

[taylo)))r]

I have no other advice besides do not be afraid of digital. It may save you a lot of money (and time) in the long run without any real noticeable sacrifice in analog "warmth."

10 grand? Just for recording? Or is that everything? Recording, mixing, mastering, Vinyl, CDs? That's a shit ton. Also, listen to Jake. He's right. Analog is nice and all, but you can get a recording that is just as good digitally at a fraction of the cost.

[Pissy]

I would think $5k could get you recorded, mixed, mastered, and about 200 vinyl with 3-400 CDs if you went for simple packaging. We recorded and mixed ourselves, and are looking at about 3500 total with these quantities on colored vinyl, single sleeve. Artwork done for beer , by a buddy. But you have to take on a fair amount of tasks yourselves-communication with the vendors and whatnot.

[chille01]

My advice... find some recordings you like of bands on your level, with a similar sound.  Find out where they recorded and with who.  Talk to that person and ask to hear more of his stuff. If you like most of his work, then ask him for a budget and a game plan.  It's all well and good to say "we want it to sound like Sabbath Vol. 4" or whatever, but chances are the classic album you reference cost more than $3K-$5K.  Yes, I think it is completely possible to get a great product for that budget, and things have changed a lot since the major label/big studio days, but you need to make sure your frame of reference is appropriate.  You're looking for the best engineer/studio that you can afford.  Because the best best best, you probably can't. 

Also, I agree with previous posters on the analog thing.  Tracking to tape is going to be a lot harder, take longer, cost more, etc. etc.  Most small to mid level studios don't have a 2" machine, because they cost a mint and have to be maintained.  It's really only the big big studios that still have those decks, in my experience.  However, a small to mid level studio might have lots of great analog mic pres, compressors, vintage mics etc. to help you get that "analog" sound, even if the end recording is going to hard disk and not tape.  I think the actual tape has a lot less to do with it than all of the front end outboard gear.

[Corey Y]

I wouldn't measure it in dollars so much as time. How much time in a studio do you need to properly record what you're doing, then how much will THAT cost, plus the cost of producing the end product (mastering, recording pressing, artwork, packaging, etc.). If you walk into some studios and say you have X dollars to spend, they might just say "ok, I think we can do this for that much". As much as that can lead to getting taken advantage of, it can also lead to getting a great deal...for part of an album, then bad work right at the end. Just like with any labor based job, if you approach it as the cost of time and materials with some sort of general estimate, you get your money's worth as long as the person you hired actually keeps working and isn't slacking off. In this case you're THERE to keep them working and you're accountable for how your own time is being used. You can rush through it or waste it just as easily. If you have a set dollar amount to get something done, it's almost gone and you still have more work to complete, there's much more likelihood of the person you're paying rushing to finish before they start losing money.

If you've recorded before you have some kind of idea how you work in the studio. Who's slow, who gets things done quickly, how much time you might need to get the tones you want and that sort of thing. Shop around, find an engineer/producer that will take the time to learn a bit about your project, what you're trying to get out of it and give you some reasonable estimates on how much time it should take, plus their rate. I often do this when I record bands and sometimes I give a flat rate for mixing a project or a flat rate for mixing each track, with an agreement on how many (if any) attended mixing sessions they might have.

You can shop around for different rates, different studios, different suppliers for materials and different pressing plants. So you need to put all that together and get a sense of what your range of costs are, then figure out what you can afford on the timeline you want. Starting with a random number won't necessarily be helpful, there's a lot of ways you can lower or raise costs at the expense of other considerations, like how fast you want something done or convenient scheduling.

[Ombrenuit]

I wouldn't measure it in dollars so much as time. How much time in a studio do you need to properly record what you're doing, then how much will THAT cost, plus the cost of producing the end product (mastering, recording pressing, artwork, packaging, etc.). If you walk into some studios and say you have X dollars to spend, they might just say "ok, I think we can do this for that much". As much as that can lead to getting taken advantage of, it can also lead to getting a great deal...for part of an album, then bad work right at the end. Just like with any labor based job, if you approach it as the cost of time and materials with some sort of general estimate, you get your money's worth as long as the person you hired actually keeps working and isn't slacking off. In this case you're THERE to keep them working and you're accountable for how your own time is being used. You can rush through it or waste it just as easily. If you have a set dollar amount to get something done, it's almost gone and you still have more work to complete, there's much more likelihood of the person you're paying rushing to finish before they start losing money.

If you've recorded before you have some kind of idea how you work in the studio. Who's slow, who gets things done quickly, how much time you might need to get the tones you want and that sort of thing. Shop around, find an engineer/producer that will take the time to learn a bit about your project, what you're trying to get out of it and give you some reasonable estimates on how much time it should take, plus their rate. I often do this when I record bands and sometimes I give a flat rate for mixing a project or a flat rate for mixing each track, with an agreement on how many (if any) attended mixing sessions they might have.

You can shop around for different rates, different studios, different suppliers for materials and different pressing plants. So you need to put all that together and get a sense of what your range of costs are, then figure out what you can afford on the timeline you want. Starting with a random number won't necessarily be helpful, there's a lot of ways you can lower or raise costs at the expense of other considerations, like how fast you want something done or convenient scheduling.

Wow, thanks Corey Y. That was incredibly eye opening and helpful. We'll definitely rethink our approach.

[Chovie D]

 
First, spend about a month on "preproduction", making sure that everything is completely planned out so that no spontaneity is necessary or possible in the studio. If there are no "hits" there, make the band collaborate with outside songwriters. [or better still cover an old hit!  Line up extra studio musicians who are better players than the band themselves, just in case.

Next, book the most expensive studio you can find so that everyone but the band gets paid lots of money. The more expensive, the more the record label will take the project seriously, which is important. Book lots and lots of time. You'll need at least 48 tracks to accomodate all the room mics you'll set up for the drums, all of which will be buried by other instruments later anyway, and for the added keyboard tracks, even if the band has never had a keyboard player. And for all the backing vocal tracks, even if the band only has one singer.

Then, record all the instruments one at a time, but make the drummer play to a click track for every song so the music has no chance to breathe whatsoever. That way you can use lots of MIDI gear. Do multiple takes of each song. Use up at least 30 reels of 2-inch tape. [2009 ADDENDUM: HaHaHa! Oh well. Tape is extinct. Good riddance.] Take the best parts of each take and splice them all together. You might even use a hard-disk recording system like Pro Tools, then transfer it all back to analog two-inch. Spend at least two weeks just compiling drum tracks like this. You'll need to rent at least a half a dozen snare drums, and you'll have to change drum heads every couple hours. If you really do it right, the entire band will never have to actually play a song together.

Now, start overdubbing each instrument, one at a time. Make sure everything is perfect. If necessary, do things over and over until absolute perfection is achieved. Do a hundred takes if you must. If this doesn't work, get "guest musicians" in to "help out".

Don't forget to hire someone who's good with samples and loops so the kids will think its hip! Better get some turntable scratching on there too.

Be sure to spend days and days just experimenting with sounds, different amplifiers, guitars, mics, speakers, basically trying every possible option you can think of to use up all that studio time you've booked. No matter how much time you book, you can use it up this way easily. Everyone involved will think they're working very hard.

Make sure you rent lots of expensive mics and expensive compressors and expensive preamps so you can convince yourself and everyone else how good it's sounding. Charge it to the band's recording budget of course. Make sure you have at least two or three compressors IN SERIES on everything you're recording. Any equipment with tubes in it is a sure bet, the older the better. The best is early-1970s-era Neve equipment, old Ampex analog recorders, and WW2-vintage tube microphones, since everyone knows that the technology of recording has continuously declined for the past 30+ years. Don't forget to get some old "ribbon" mics too.

Make sure that by the time it's finished everyone is absolutely, totally sick of all the songs and never wants to hear any of them again. Oops! Now it's time to mix it!

Better get someone with "fresh ears" (who's never heard any of it before) to mix it in a $2000/day SSL room with full automation. Make sure he's pretty famous, and of course you have to fly to LA, NYC or Nashville to do this, because there simply are no decent studios anywhere else. Make sure he compresses the hell out of everything as he mixes it. Compress each drum individually and then compress an overall stereo submix of 'em. Make sure to compress all the electric guitars even though a distorting guitar amp is the most extreme "compressor" in existence. Compress everything else, and then compress the overall mix. Add tons and tons of reverb to the drums on top of all those room mics, and add stereo chorus on everything else. Spare no expense. Spend at least two weeks on it. Then take it home and decide to pay for someone else to remix the whole thing.

Then get some New York coke-head mastering engineer to master it, and make sure he compresses the hell out of everything again and takes away all the low end and makes it super bright and crispy and harsh so it'll sound really LOUD on the radio. (Too bad about all those people with nice home stereos.)

Oh-oh! Your A+R guy just got fired! Looks like the record will never be released!


that was from 1999 by Jack Endino
i offer it up for humor, but theres some decent insights in there too.

[Mr. Foxen]

I just had Om's FoH sound engineer (also engineers in studio) offer to record my band for £80/day with his mobile rig, might be mate's rate though. We recorded the Caricatures album in a studio in one day, plus another day for mixing, mastering was done by one of the band. Good enough to have a label pick it up and release it, so printing costs didn't come into it. Sonance record was recorded by Joe the Om guy doing a day to get drums in the studio, then bunch of band members house/parents barn stuff, again, good enough for another label to pick it up for vinyl release. So a lot comes down to what the band can put into it themselves. Link to that guy: http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/joe-garcia/79/866/399

Massive thing is as a band, have your shit down. If you amp does something fucky and needs a tap every now and again, get it sorted out. If your guitar is noisy, get it sorted out. Do this before the studio date. If you are not happy with an arrangement, sort that out before the recording too. If you are borrowing gear to record with, spend some time with it before you go to the studio. Ideally, have whoever is engineering the session come and spend some time at practice fucking with stuff to get it done with outside studio time, paying him to be in your place is gonna be cheaper than paying him while paying for the studio too. Plus he'll have a clue what you are up to. Once you've done all the and the recording is good, all the mixing and mastering gets a bunch cheaper because less of it.

[Ombrenuit]

Thanks for the suggestion, I never considered having an engineer record in our space - which I think would be preferable. We're going for a sixties sound anyway.

[eddiefive10]

If you want analog and can travel across the border, in Montreal Radwan played in The Black Hand, Cursed and Ire has a studio with the dudes in God Speed You Black Emporer called Hotel2Tango (www.hotel2tango.com) awesome 24 track all analog studio with great rates

[bbottom]

My first question is what is, your goal with the album? Because once you figure that out it will be much easier to answer your question.

[liquidsmoke]

$2,000-3,000 will buy you good enough gear to record, mix, and master a great sounding album at your space and then when it's time to record another album you're already set.

[Headshrinker]

$2,000-3,000 will buy you good enough gear to record, mix, and master a great sounding album at your space and then when it's time to record another album you're already set.

Add 'good ears', 'proper acoustics', 'miking and mixing skills' to the bill, then.

[Ombrenuit]

Goal of the album?

Sonically somewhere in Uncle Acid's vol. 1 territory.

Why not DIY?

I know Mr. Acid recorded that album himself with an 8 track reel to reel and mixed on a DAW. That said I've dabbled in mixing our demos and the result was amateur at best.

[Jake]

$2,000-3,000 will buy you good enough gear to record, mix, and master a great sounding album at your space and then when it's time to record another album you're already set.

Yeah, this would be ideal if there wasn't a great deal of skill and experience necessary to make all those new toys work at their highest potential. For example, if I were to buy a racecar, I wouldn't be able to get the same lap times as a professional driver. Not even close.

However, that said, it's not a bad idea to buy some mics, a board, some software, and start messing around with some demo-style home recording anyways. The innerwebs is a bottomless well of great information about all things recording (and boobies). It's a great way to get your feet wet. Just make sure to keep your expectations reasonable and most of all, have fun.

[AgentofOblivion]

Our drummer had several mics, an 8 channel interface/preamp, and a reasonably good computer and did all the engineering, mixing, mastering.  He's not an expert, but he's been fiddling with it for several years and reads a lot of shit.  You be the judge, but I think it sounds just fine for our purposes.  It would not be difficult to make things sound more lo-fi/60s, that's just not his preference.

In my opinion, it sounds overproduced if anything and that's with a budget of zero (probably $2k in equipment) and a lot of elbow grease.  The one lesson I learned is we worked too hard and the whole law of diminishing returns thing.  We should have played each song 3-5 times live (without vocals) and chose the best one, overdubbed a few things and been done with it.  The amount of bullshit we did to record separate for purposes of avoiding mic bleed and ensuring the take wasn't ruined if someone fucked up just wasn't worth it.  I would rather have had some mistakes and given up some tonal control to get it out much sooner and with a lot less time involved.  We could have spent that time doing something that might actually help us be successful than worrying about shit no one would ever notice or care about anyway.

http://rowsdowerstl.bandcamp.com/

[eddiefive10]

I don't think that recording sounds bad or over produced at all!!

[fallen]

I've heard of people recently who because they really love the sound of a specific tape machine they are recording and mixing everything crispy and digital, then dumping the mix to the tape machine to warm up the top end, and then dumping it all back to digital again for mastering. Cool trick.

[liquidsmoke]

http://rowsdowerstl.bandcamp.com/

Sounds 100% pro to me!

[spookstrickland]

Take your money and buy and Alesis 24 track and some good mics.  Rent a nice quite remote place and record until you get what you want then take it to be mixed and mastered somewhere else.  You will save lots of money and be much happier.

[Ombrenuit]

Take your money and buy and Alesis 24 track and some good mics.  Rent a nice quite remote place and record until you get what you want then take it to be mixed and mastered somewhere else.  You will save lots of money and be much happier.

The Alesis HD24?

Do you think tracking in a studio is just overpriced, or is there a legitimate concern that it's harder to get a result you're happy with?

[moose23]

We're looking at recording an album of seven songs around the fifty minute mark with mastering, artwork and 230-300 records (vinyl) all for under 2000 euro.