Speaker selection advice....

kirky · September 09, 2012, 09:35:52 PM

I got a empty Kustom tuck and roll cab for $25 today....I'm planning on using it for a 1968 bassman head...50w and 4 ohm....it's cut for a 10" and a 15" speaker combo.....what would be a good choice speaker wise?

Hemisaurus · September 09, 2012, 10:50:41 PM

If you're not planning to usea crossover, an 8 ohm 10" and an 8 ohm 15" that ave a nice high sensitivity, and probably a low power handling.

RAGER · September 10, 2012, 12:44:09 AM

Them cabs aint known for handling the loud and heavy

Mr. Foxen · September 10, 2012, 03:56:47 AM

4 ohm only pretty much kills speaker choices, but best bet is going to be closing up the 10 hole and/or converting it to a port. Mixing a 10 and a 15 in the same box is just going to make a mess. Depending on if using it for a guitar or bass, you might want a mess, but mess and taste is unpredictable, so can't make recommendations with any value.

Hemisaurus · September 10, 2012, 09:42:00 AM

Quote from: Mr. Foxen on September 10, 2012, 03:56:47 AM
can't make recommendations with any value.

What Foxen says, is only really applicable if the cab is sealed, and the 15" and the 10" share the same cabinet space. If you check the Eminence manual, there's a 10+15 in there, where the 10" has it's own little box, inside the 15" box.

Also Kustom were big on venting a cab at the back, so it was actually open back, and the two speakers didn't really interfere with each other.

kirky · September 10, 2012, 10:51:41 AM

Yeah, I'm gonna use it for guitar....it looks like someone converted it from a 2x12....just wondering if the current situation could be cool with the right speakers....looking more closely it seems to be a 2x12 cab that someone upholstered....it's a project for sure, but a pretty cool looking one....

Jake · September 10, 2012, 11:26:01 AM

Pics!

I'd just cut a new baffle and dump in some 12s. If you have any questions about 12s, I've got plenty firsthand experience making big/loud/dumb rock music with lots of various speakers, and can be of more help if you go that route.

Mr. Foxen · September 10, 2012, 01:08:04 PM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 10, 2012, 09:42:00 AM
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on September 10, 2012, 03:56:47 AM
can't make recommendations with any value.
What Foxen says, is only really applicable if the cab is sealed, and the 15" and the 10" share the same cabinet space. If you check the Eminence manual, there's a 10+15 in there, where the 10" has it's own little box, inside the 15" box.

Also Kustom were big on venting a cab at the back, so it was actually open back, and the two speakers didn't really interfere with each other.

They can still be out of phase at some frequencies even in separate boxes, makes the sound notchy and patchy out front.

Hemisaurus · September 10, 2012, 02:46:04 PM

Have you ever seen the freq response of a regular 4x12?

I found out that PA sound, and instrument amp sounds, are both dogs of a different colour. Which I suppose is why manufacturers like Eminence differentiate between instrument speakers and PA speakers.

Patchy and Notchy, I like it, you could do a kids cartoon with that. Teach them sound theory whilst they're young.

You will get destructive and constructive interference with the same type of speaker in the same cab, with different cabs with different types of speaker, and just to bugger you all up, the same speaker in two identical cabs, if you move one cab slightly.

In theory, people shouldn't mix V-30's and Greenbacks or whatever n the same cab, but they do, and they like it, people are weird

Like lots of people do with guitar, play it by ear

Mr. Foxen · September 10, 2012, 04:13:05 PM

Yeah, it changes depending on where you stand, that's the issue, but it does it predictably if all the speakers are the same. Its why dudes who stand too close to the cab end up with icepick treble out front. Most guitarists have shitty sound, sorting some of the issues from the start would really help that. 4x12s are dreadful devices unless you want to be able to control feedback by going of axis and such. Two different speakers with totally unpredictable polar patterns won't even afford you that benefit though. Plus play by ear when asking for suggestions doesn't really work.

Hemisaurus · September 10, 2012, 04:45:13 PM

My suggestion works perfectly.

2 x 8 ohm speaker, because he wants 4 ohms

High efficiency, because he's only got 50W

anything more would be highly subjective.

Lumpy · September 10, 2012, 07:09:52 PM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 10, 2012, 02:46:04 PM
In theory, people shouldn't mix V-30's and Greenbacks or whatever n the same cab, but they do, and they like it, people are weird

(thread hijack)

I actually notice this a lot, especially with Pro Audio guys (aka 'sound guys'). "You can't ______ because (you'll get less-than-perfect sound)". When in the real world, people are doing that 'wrong' thing all the time, and might be perfectly happy. It's like these folks never go see a rock&roll show, where perfect sound has never existed (and in my opinion, people don't want "perfect sound"). For example, certain setup of PA speakers will leave a big zone of poor coverage in the back of the room (good place for people to hang out and talk!). Certain backline setups will result in uneven coverage up front (I like the bass player, so I'm going to stand on his side of the room). In the real world, people are able to find their own 'best mix' by choosing where to stand in the room. Etc. Sorry for the thread hijack. To be honest, this padded 'project' cab with mismatched speakers does seem like a potential mess (because I'm not a fan of padded cabs, projects, or mismatched speaker sizes

). But the science of acoustics isn't always the last word on all topics (although that's probably as good a jumping off place as any other, when you're uncertain).

/thread hijack

Mr. Foxen · September 10, 2012, 07:31:54 PM

Quote from: Lumpy on September 10, 2012, 07:09:52 PM
Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 10, 2012, 02:46:04 PM
In theory, people shouldn't mix V-30's and Greenbacks or whatever n the same cab, but they do, and they like it, people are weird

(thread hijack)

I actually notice this a lot, especially with Pro Audio guys (aka 'sound guys'). "You can't ______ because (you'll get less-than-perfect sound)". When in the real world, people are doing that 'wrong' thing all the time, and might be perfectly happy. It's like these folks never go see a rock&roll show, where perfect sound has never existed (and in my opinion, people don't want "perfect sound"). For example, certain setup of PA speakers will leave a big zone of poor coverage in the back of the room (good place for people to hang out and talk!). Certain backline setups will result in uneven coverage up front (I like the bass player, so I'm going to stand on his side of the room). In the real world, people are able to find their own 'best mix' by choosing where to stand in the room. Etc. Sorry for the thread hijack. To be honest, this padded 'project' cab with mismatched speakers does seem like a potential mess (because I'm not a fan of padded cabs, projects, or mismatched speaker sizes ). But the science of acoustics isn't always the last word on all topics (although that's probably as good a jumping off place as any other, when you're uncertain).

/thread hijack

Thing is, the sound guy sticks a mic in front of one speaker. So if your tone comes from a mix of speakers with the top end attenuated by your ears being of axis, then you end up feeding shitty sound to the front of house, into a PA that, ideally, is designed for even coverage. Better to set up so you can actually hear what is coming out of your speakers, so you sound the same to yourself as out front. The science covers a hell of a lot, if you know all the science and all of the situation, cutting out as much potential mess as possible before you start is going to make dealing with the uncontrollable variables loads easier.

Lumpy · September 10, 2012, 07:45:37 PM

I see your side of it completely, I was just commenting on the "rules" that some people make -- especially 'sound guys' -- they don't always matter in a rock&roll context.

I am already sold on the idea of using identical speaker sizes, unless you are playing full range audio (and guitar & bass are usually not). I also hate project cabs -- cabs are so plentiful and cheap, why not start with something that's already very close to what you want.

Mr. Foxen · September 10, 2012, 07:50:37 PM

There a fucking load of shit sound guys about. I was pretty lucky to move in with a guy with really good ears who is my go to guy now (and Om's when they are in Europe). I've seen sound guys eq by eye though, that is a fucking shambles. But they are only gonna make you sound worse if you are a cunt to them.

Lumpy · September 10, 2012, 08:00:09 PM

One of the reasons there might be so many bad sound guys... the good ones aren't exactly free & easy with the information, and they seemingly can't explain anything using layman's terms. If you need a degree in the science of Acoustics to be a good sound guy, the world will never have enough good sound guys.

Mr. Foxen · September 10, 2012, 08:11:18 PM

Think its more to do with venues and bands not giving a enough of shit about shitty sound that being a decent sound man is a respected position. It should be all about ears, listen for it sounding right, know your equipment well enough to figure something to do about it. The technical science part is where I come in, to figure where the problem is if it is out of scope of ears and knob turning. Venues just need to get the expensive guy in when they set the place up, then the man on the desk's job is as easy as the band playing sound good on their own.

Hemisaurus · September 10, 2012, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: Lumpy on September 10, 2012, 08:00:09 PM
One of the reasons there might be so many bad sound guys... the good ones aren't exactly free & easy with the information, and they seemingly can't explain anything using layman's terms. If you need a degree in the science of Acoustics to be a good sound guy, the world will never have enough good sound guys.

You read the bible, carefully and learn.

Bible = Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook.

the reason there are so many shitty guys, in the US, is it's the guy who bought the PA that generally runs it, rather than a guy who trained over years to do the job.

wasn't like that in the UK, 15-20 years ago, though that may have changed, you started by watching the guy doing it, then you did monitors, then you did FOH. We built and maintained our systems, wasn't uncommon to bring a 4-6K 4 way rig to a bar, set it up, do the show, tear it back down again, that was bread and butter, most bars found us cheaper than having a house PA, unless they were doing it every night, sometimes a rig became a house PA, they'd buy it from us, sometimes they'd even poach one of us to run it.

the expensive guy would probably be too busy fannying about with his pink noise generator and his RTA to get any fucking work done.

Hemisaurus · September 10, 2012, 08:28:36 PM

oh and the guitarist would know his sound, and have taped a little square over the best speaker in his cab to guide you on where to put the mic

and if the bass player asked you to mic and DI him, that was OK too, if you had the channels spare.

zachoff · September 10, 2012, 08:43:18 PM

JBL D140s. I'm guessing the Kustom is similar in size to the old Bassman 2x15s and my old Bassman cab had them and it sounded f'ing awesome w/ the Bassman head. Really wish I wouldn't have sold that rig.

zachoff · September 10, 2012, 10:28:55 PM

Damn it, I didn't even read that it was cut for 10 & 15. Sorry, dude. Honestly, if you're going to use it with a 50W Bassman head I'd put guitar speakers in it. Don't have an idea of what but that'd be where I'd start.