what makes an orange sound like an orange?

[justinhedrick]

tried to google this (what a fucking nightmare!)

i'm assuming it has to do with everything considered, but what REALLY makes an orange (or it's variants) sound the way they do?

[dunwichamps]

ability to tailor bass early in preamp, plate driven James/Bax stack, AC coupled cathodyne phase inverter, maybe El34s

[justinhedrick]

ability to tailor bass early in preamp, plate driven James/Bax stack, AC coupled cathodyne phase inverter, maybe El34s

interesting. i would assume that everything you mentioned BUT the el34s are a factor. i've heard some oranges configured with different tubes, and while it sounded different, it still sounded orange.

[dunwichamps]

yea thats why i gave you the maybe

I think its a secondary effect

[justJon]

I always figured it's just 'cause nothing rhymes with it.










But what do I know, I'm a drummer.

[dunwichamps]

resident nerd at ur service, I built an OR 120 before (mods as well) so I know the circuit

[SpaceTrucker]

It's the tone stack, alot flatter midrange, most Fender/marshall/vox amps dip in the midrange no matter what you do. Atleast thats the biggest difference between and orange and most other amps. And I'm sure its got to do also with all the other components in the amp too. but most of those increase the power coming out, not changing the sound coming in, 90% of the sound is all preamp and effects. The rest is MAGIC!

[Hemisaurus]

The flatter midrange, brought to you compliments of the Baxandall tonestack.

Don't some old Ampeg's use it too?

[SpaceTrucker]

Yeah, the v Series, and I think the svt, but they had like a +/- 15 db midrange control.

[dunwichamps]

Ampegs have bax stacks on a few models, the mid control is an unrelated and independent circuit which uses a small transformer for an inductor to get an LCR circuit for mids. Ampegs center frequency on the bax stack is much lower than the ones used in Matamp/EA/Orange. Bax stack is only flat when control are flat if you bring B and T up, then you start getting a mid cut while if you bring B and T down you get a mid boost (albeit with more signal loss)

Oranges also have a lot of extra bass early in the preamp, which is fine tuned with the bax and the FAC control. More bass = woolier clipping, darker feel as well. Also can cause blocking distortion if used too much.

AC coupled cathodyne phase inverter has significant "swirl", a phenomenon that occurs when you overdrive the phase inverter and causing freq doubling in the push pull stage. It can sound bad or good depending upon setup, but sometimes the freq doubling has a phaser esque effect. This can happen to other amps with AC cathodyne but nearly all Fender and Marshall amps us Long tail pairs which are not susceptible to this much.

Also first two stage have 220k plate resistors, larger than any other classic marshall or fender design. bigger plate resistor = more gain.

Its a mixture of a few things which gets you the orange overall sound. I built a lot of amps with bax stacks and its not just that which gets you orange

[Magnu]

Wow, thanks Dun. It's quite awesome to have you around here.

[dunwichamps]

I have designs for modded Bax stacks for mid control, you deviate from traditional designs but u get more flex. (mid shift and/or mids)

Orange is done tho, whatever is left is a rotted shell of what used to be a great amp company

[justinhedrick]

nick, would just the pre-amp section of the or120 have some of the same magic?

[dunwichamps]

yes, it would get you something, just building the first 2 stages would get you the wooly clipping and the bax stack.  but without the cathodyne being included you would not get the whole thing, thats an important part of the amp sounding the way it does

[RAGER]

Orange is done tho, whatever is left is a rotted shell of what used to be a great amp company

I am so glad to have an early specimen.

[dunwichamps]

Orange is done tho, whatever is left is a rotted shell of what used to be a great amp company

I am so glad to have an early specimen.

its either that or clone

[Volume]

Orange is done tho, whatever is left is a rotted shell of what used to be a great amp company

Aren't they all. The big companies fuck up their designs with heaps of useless features or make ridiculously expensive anniversary re-issues of classic amps. On the other hand boutique builders just make clones of old designs, which isn't bad but not all that original either.

[dunwichamps]

Orange is done tho, whatever is left is a rotted shell of what used to be a great amp company

Aren't they all. The big companies fuck up their designs with heaps of useless features or make ridiculously expensive anniversary re-issues of classic amps. On the other hand boutique builders just make clones of old designs, which isn't bad but not all that original either.

Some builders do just clones, its a large share of the market but not all of us. I dont make any str8 clones (unless requested). They are not original but they are not clones. One thing prevalent in amp building is that companies (major amp builders) copied each other a lot. For example, Fender Bassman --> Marshall JTM 45 (Plexi, SL, SB) --> Traynor Bass Master --> Sunn Model T ---> Laney Supergroup ---> Sovtek Mig......

All of those amps are very very similar, just some minor tweaks here and there but the entire circuit was just lifted each time and changed by 10% then sold.

[Volume]

Yeah, I know. I was just exaggerating a bit to make my point. 

And don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for boutique builders.

[dunwichamps]

Yeah, I know. I was just exaggerating a bit to make my point. 

And don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for boutique builders.

no worries i was not offended or anything.

its a tough business to be really innovative, best to be well built than anything else

[Hemisaurus]

It's harder still to be original, when most players are such traditionalists. Not strictly fair, but you only get one type of preamp tube and four types of piwer tube to play with, unless your name is Eric

[jibberish]

resident nerd at ur service, I built an OR 120 before (mods as well) so I know the circuit

hey chief, i was wondering, just ballpark,,What is the cost of the electrical components for one of these OR120 type circuits that you built.   from reviewing tons of videos. i see orange amps a lot by all genres of performers.

TIA

[dunwichamps]

resident nerd at ur service, I built an OR 120 before (mods as well) so I know the circuit

hey chief, i was wondering, just ballpark,,What is the cost of the electrical components for one of these OR120 type circuits that you built.   from reviewing tons of videos. i see orange amps a lot by all genres of performers.

TIA

You can get a Weber kit for 600 or so. The Orange kit is a tough one tho, its just too small of a chassis and not the best layout. I recommend building it out of the 8cm100 kit (jcm 800), adjusting the layout and just ask for the eyelet board from the 60100 kit. Ill help you with whatever ideas you need.

[jibberish]

thanks for that and that little tip.

i've been meditating on custom amp layout visuals. the mainboard always looks nasty.  meditating on materials right now for the mainboard. this is pre-PCB stuff, so that really opens up the range of possible materials.

what, if anything besides specific winding ratios and taps, makes a power amp tranny different? or what is the key feature(s) that a tranny has to have to be power amp worthy. shear capacity and the correct windings/taps?

thanks again, and dont fear the math if you need to really explain anything.

i've also reverse engineered circuits for fun and profit, and these amp circuits have pretty low component counts, so that creates boatloads of freedom also.

IMO right angles in wires causes a restricton, work hardens the flexxed area, stresses the metal and overall impedes electron flow.  wired a few panels and rebuilds (im automation engineer) and never use right angles when avoidable. The next best thing is to roll your wire around a cylindrical jig(ie screwdriver shaft etc) to form a tight curve 90º, like a fillet has a radius. there is probably a spec on any gauge of wire for minimum radius. why? stress when bent too far and a 90 has technicallly no radius.

cable/wire dressing = pro.  consistent insulation trim lengths(to th eshort side), quick in-for-the-kill soldering to make bright nice solders. use solvent to clean every last bit of rosin or soldering funk. choose harmonious wire insulation colors and patterns.
people just shit when they saw my panels. inside was nicer than the front. never use rebent wires for show, total image


ive been meditating for a while on these amps..establishing a direction..getting close.
im mad scientist and not afraid to try way different ideas on things

[dunwichamps]

Given the current levels in an amp, there is not much restriction with a right angle bend, the wire I use is rated up to 7-16A of current but you only expect milliamps in the power supply, with at most amps in the heaters but heater wiring is a heavy twisted pair so you cant get 90 degree bends just short radiuses

For turret boards I use 1/8" garolite from Watts Tube Audio with their turret mounter. You can make nice custom design using a layout editor. My recommendation to do it that way, its nearly bullet proof when done right

For trannies you want to know its rated power versus frequency response, primary impedance, max DC bias, output impedance, and sometimes fabrication methods

I use a split buss ground scheme, preamp grounds are separated from the power amp grounds/transformer center taps. Preamp grounds for each stages ground are brought back to a local star point then the star is brought to a buss of tinned heavy gauge wire which is crimped and soldered to a spade then attached to the chassis near the input jack with star nuts.

Power amp grounds are all brought to a star near the PT bolts but not on a pt bolt

I never have problems with ground loops or heater hum, virtually done exist in my amps given the grounding and heater methods I use