best sounding high gain solid state guitar amps for metal?

[moose23]

You'll have plenty of power on tap with the Mosvalve so I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of level from the tight metal just yet.

[liquidsmoke]

Good point. I'll know in the morning. Found this which could do the trick if need be-





Might speaker wire gauge size(amp to cab and internal cab) be an issue? The manual says "380 Watts RMS at 4 ohms one channel driven". If I'm using one 8 ohm speaker that's still a lot of juice. I don't think cab manufacturers generally assume you might be throwing that kind of power at a guitar cab even if it's rated at 300 watts handling. I don't want to melt anything.

[liquidsmoke]

Turned the Mosvalve all the way up just now, maybe loud enough for band practice but I'll need a signal closer to line level to see it's real potential. More Google searching underway.

[moose23]

The yoke above will work but one of us builders on the board could make you up something specifically for the job you need. Obviously any clean boost with 14dB on tap will also work.

[liquidsmoke]

The yoke above will work but one of us builders on the board could make you up something specifically for the job you need. Obviously any clean boost with 14dB on tap will also work.

14db is all it takes? The Mosvalve is 775 MV at 0db. I'm assuming that I need a certain level of signal to actually get the amp to maximum performance although I can't imagine ever needing full power from it. At the moment just with the tightmetal it barely hurts my ears on 10. A different friend of mine is trying to sell his old Sunn slave unit and it's even more quiet than the Mos. Found an interesting and hopefully accurate website explaining preamps and signals- http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/preamp.shtml

I found this sentence interesting- "A "clean boost" pedal may commonly offer 20 or 30 dB of gain, but it may take 50 or 60 dB gain to bring the output of a bass or guitar up to the level needed to drive a typical power amp."

[Lumpy]

Going back to last page...

the "volume" attenuator knobs on a PA style power amp are actually more like 'sensitivity'. Even with the levels all the way down, the amp will output full power if the input signal is strong enough. Think about that. It seems like 'volume' and reacts like 'volume' but it's input sensitivity. You're supposed to run a PA amp 'wide open'. I dunno about "doubling" speaker RMS, if I were you I would go for a 1 to 1 match on amp power/speaker's "continuous" rating. (example: speakers are 1200/600/300, go with a 300 watt amp) A bass or guitar is a continuous signal. You'll also be getting additional gain from distortion pedals. You'll have plenty of power on tap. This is the safest way to go. If you need more volume, add speakers.

I can appreciate the PA/preamp approach, but using a "head" is usually more of a no brainer, easier to carry, no hidden costs (roadcase? EQ? Cables?) and less complicated to understand, hook up, run safely, and troubleshoot. Unless you have special needs, just run what everybody else runs (a head) IMO.

[moose23]

The yoke above will work but one of us builders on the board could make you up something specifically for the job you need. Obviously any clean boost with 14dB on tap will also work.

14db is all it takes? The Mosvalve is 775 MV at 0db. I'm assuming that I need a certain level of signal to actually get the amp to maximum performance although I can't imagine ever needing full power from it. At the moment just with the tightmetal it barely hurts my ears on 10. A different friend of mine is trying to sell his old Sunn slave unit and it's even more quiet than the Mos. Found an interesting and hopefully accurate website explaining preamps and signals- http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/preamp.shtml

I found this sentence interesting- "A "clean boost" pedal may commonly offer 20 or 30 dB of gain, but it may take 50 or 60 dB gain to bring the output of a bass or guitar up to the level needed to drive a typical power amp."

Well +14dBu is what you ideally need but considering the Mosvalve is .775V I think you'll be alright with a fairly standard boost. You'd need twice that or more for a power amp with a higher input sensitivity.

Can you try running the tightmetal/mosvalve combo into a second cab and so you can hear the difference doubling up your speakers makes?

[liquidsmoke]

Going back to last page...

the "volume" attenuator knobs on a PA style power amp are actually more like 'sensitivity'. Even with the levels all the way down, the amp will output full power if the input signal is strong enough. Think about that. It seems like 'volume' and reacts like 'volume' but it's input sensitivity. You're supposed to run a PA amp 'wide open'. I dunno about "doubling" speaker RMS, if I were you I would go for a 1 to 1 match on amp power/speaker's "continuous" rating. (example: speakers are 1200/600/300, go with a 300 watt amp) A bass or guitar is a continuous signal. You'll also be getting additional gain from distortion pedals. You'll have plenty of power on tap. This is the safest way to go. If you need more volume, add speakers.

I can appreciate the PA/preamp approach, but using a "head" is usually more of a no brainer, easier to carry, no hidden costs (roadcase? EQ? Cables?) and less complicated to understand, hook up, run safely, and troubleshoot. Unless you have special needs, just run what everybody else runs (a head) IMO.

Sensitivity, ah okay. Makes sense. Wide open and then the preamp controls how loud you are.

I'll forget about that double power thing. I think what I read was with regards to bass gear and didn't make sense to me in the first place.

Yeah a regular head would be easier, what head though? I've explained the issues I've experienced with the 3 I currently own. The tube Laney GH is somewhat acceptable for now but I want more headroom. Even if I had a head with a real clean channel the TightMetal might not sound that great through it.

The good thing about rack roadcases is that you can seal them up from the elements for transport. $175(Mosvalve) for all that power is hard to turn down. If I can get some sort of small pedal to stick on my board that can convert the signal to 775 MV and control volume in the same way that rack and amp preamps do I'd be set. The TightMetal needs nothing more than a bit of eqing from my Boss EQ pedal. I don't want a regular preamp adding additional color. I could a/b box switch on my pedalboard to a Sansamp or something for an amp'd sounding clean tone if I need that in the future but of course that's another $100+ at least. It never ends.. but I'm close. Reverb too, I need one of those.

[liquidsmoke]

Well +14dBu is what you ideally need but considering the Mosvalve is .775V I think you'll be alright with a fairly standard boost. You'd need twice that or more for a power amp with a higher input sensitivity.

Can you try running the tightmetal/mosvalve combo into a second cab and so you can hear the difference doubling up your speakers makes?

Ah. And then I would just use either the boost or the power amp gain knob to control volume?

I've been running two 8 ohm cabs with it. It's a bit louder than one but not much. The 2x12 seems to be louder than the 4x12. It's fairly loud right now but nothing like it would be with a proper signal.

[Hemisaurus]

Have you tried switching the effects loop on the Tightmetal to post, and taking the signal out the send jack? Are you running the Tightmetal on 9V or 18V, according to the manual you should be able to bypass an amps preamp and go straight into power amp in. I'd think about getting in touch with Amptweaker and asking, perhaps they'd mod the pedal if it needs it.

So in summary:

• Tightmetal into FX return on Ampeg SS or Laney SS, sounds good, but too loud.
• Tightmetal into MOSValve is too quiet.

Solutions:

• For about $10 worth of parts, I can build a passive volume control for you, it's a pot, in a metal box, with a couple of jacks, use Ampeg or Laney.
• For about $30, you can get an LPB-1 and boost the signal 20dB, if you already have a boost, an OD, or even a small mixer, you can try any one of them to raise the output of the Tightmetal for the Mosvalve.

[moose23]

Just had a look at the manual:

"Add an overdrive/booster pedal in the Effects Loop (set to Post) to give more output level to this pedal."

[liquidsmoke]

Have you tried switching the effects loop on the Tightmetal to post, and taking the signal out the send jack? Are you running the Tightmetal on 9V or 18V, according to the manual you should be able to bypass an amps preamp and go straight into power amp in. I'd think about getting in touch with Amptweaker and asking, perhaps they'd mod the pedal if it needs it.

So in summary:

• Tightmetal into FX return on Ampeg SS or Laney SS, sounds good, but too loud.
• Tightmetal into MOSValve is too quiet.

Solutions:

• For about $10 worth of parts, I can build a passive volume control for you, it's a pot, in a metal box, with a couple of jacks, use Ampeg or Laney.
• For about $30, you can get an LPB-1 and boost the signal 20dB, if you already have a boost, an OD, or even a small mixer, you can try any one of them to raise the output of the Tightmetal for the Mosvalve.

I only have a second here before work..

"Have you tried switching the effects loop on the Tightmetal to post, and taking the signal out the send jack?"

No. What would be the difference between this and the regular pedal out jack? I don't get the point of effects loops with pedals like this.

Running 18v for a tighter sound. I'm not sure if it actually sound different or not.

I have bypassed the preamps of all of my amps. The Laney's master volume works when I do this and it also has an effects loops volume knob on that back so it gets loud enough when used this way but being a 50 watt tube head it breaks up before I would like it to, otherwise it's fine when used this way although I would like more clean headroom.

When I bypass the Ampeg's preamp it's master volume knob is also bypassed and it doesn't have an effects loop volume knob. Not loud enough, like the Mosvalve because nothing is upping the signal closer to .775 or so.

I sent Amptweaker a message last night about using the amp with a power amp. Why would I want them to mod it other than to put out a .775mv signal?

I have a small mixer, I'll try that. I also like the idea of the $30 LPB-1 so long as it would give me the same volume from the Mosvalve as a rack type preamp would, there is no point in getting a 500 watt amp if I can't get 500 watt type volume out of it, you know?

[liquidsmoke]

Just had a look at the manual:

"Add an overdrive/booster pedal in the Effects Loop (set to Post) to give more output level to this pedal."

What is the difference between this and simply running a boost after the regular output jack?

[moose23]

Just had a look at the manual:

"Add an overdrive/booster pedal in the Effects Loop (set to Post) to give more output level to this pedal."

What is the difference between this and simply running a boost after the regular output jack?

Try it and find out.

As for the pre/post switch try it and find out.

[liquidsmoke]

Just had a look at the manual:

"Add an overdrive/booster pedal in the Effects Loop (set to Post) to give more output level to this pedal."

What is the difference between this and simply running a boost after the regular output jack?

Try it and find out.

As for the pre/post switch try it and find out.

Tomorrow I will try the effects loop out and will also try the mixer. Will probably order an LPB-1.

edit: not seeing the LPB-1 for less than $40 online.

[liquidsmoke]

Got an email back from none other than James Amptweaker Brown himself who suggested that I try an 18V boost pedal. I'm thinking a 9 is probably fine if that $30 LPB-1 is 9. It's nice when a piece of gear isn't a billion dollars once in awhile.

[liquidsmoke]

The last thing I am unsure about is the gauge of the cab wire and cab to speaker cables for handling 250 watts. Assuming the cabs have 16 or 18.

[VOLVO)))]

Man, you are putting too much thought into it. Unless you're using forty feet of speaker cable to go from head to cab, energy loss and heat dissipation won't be an issue, nor will the resistance become a factor. Plug the fucking cable into the cabinet, plug your pedals into the amp, plug guitar into pedals, and fucking play the thing. You're trying to re-invent the wheel, when in actuality you're going to end up with a guitar tone that sounds like the rest of the "metal world."

I think your "gain" search is in vain, because most of the best metal tones in history have been a result of "less gain" more "good guitar playing."

^^^CRATE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

^^^CRATE^^^^^^^^

^^^^SOLID STATE MARSHALL^^^^^^

^^^^^^^^HM-2 + JCM800's^^^^^^

[VOLVO)))]

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/bloodbath/209134-bloodbath-equipment.html

Also, what the FUCK? Bloodbath posts on forums? That RULES.

[liquidsmoke]

Man, you are putting too much thought into it. Unless you're using forty feet of speaker cable to go from head to cab, energy loss and heat dissipation won't be an issue, nor will the resistance become a factor. Plug the fucking cable into the cabinet, plug your pedals into the amp, plug guitar into pedals, and fucking play the thing. You're trying to re-invent the wheel, when in actuality you're going to end up with a guitar tone that sounds like the rest of the "metal world."

I think your "gain" search is in vain, because most of the best metal tones in history have been a result of "less gain" more "good guitar playing."

I suck balls at guitar relatively speaking but I can strike a power chord just fine and THE LANEY WASN'T WORKING OUT SO I'M TRYING NEW SHIT, okay? Holy fuck. If some of you are so sick of me and this thread why do you keep posting in it? Am I making sense? I think I've asked some very reasonable questions for someone who has never owned a SS head or used a power amp before. You yourself were talking about running a Metal Zone(of all things) straight into a power amp!

I'm not reinventing the wheel, I JUST NEED A LINE LEVEL SIGNAL and I'm getting a boost to do so which will probably mean the end of this thread now that I know I won't burn or melt anything running upwards of 500 watts. I'm not a fucking amp builder or electronics tech school guy, okay? I'll definitely think twice before starting another thread here.

You offer suggestions and then get pissed off when people don't IMMEDIATELY follow them. That's not how life works. I APPRECIATE what you've had to say about amps, Les Pauls, etc but there are many options these days as you know and learning about and experimenting with gear is a process that takes time and at times quite a bit of thought and consideration.

My gain search is in vain... I should just use whatever gear I've got and be done with it, as if that's what you do? That's a joke. JCM800? No thanks, not spending that kind of money.

I don't play extreme metal by the way so those clips, yeah I can hear the tone but the context is off. I fully realize that the sound I'm going for is very metal normal. And? It's what I want right now. Do you think I believe I'm going for something special or out of the ordinary? $180 is a lot for a pedal but it's a lot less than what an 800 or a Mesa costs. Okay I'm done, fuck this thread. Someone please delete it.


edit: I overreacted a bit. Thanks for all the info everyone.

[Metal and Beer]

We're not gonna delete an entire thread because shit gets itchy, man, come on. Tell these dudes to fuck off, and know they have every right to do the same...

There's a shitload of good info in this thread, despite the butthurt; for that reason alone it stays.

[moose23]

The last thing I am unsure about is the gauge of the cab wire and cab to speaker cables for handling 250 watts. Assuming the cabs have 16 or 18.

As long as you're using speaker cable and not instrument cable you'll be fine. Remember bass players have been running upwards of 250 for a long long time and using the same cables as guitarists.

For future reference have a look at the Sansamp Character series, some great sounds there and they all put out line level and more for running straight into a power amp. There's a Mesa and a Marshall sounding one among others.



This thread sure delivers on all counts.

[Lumpy]

Everyone remain calm and keep your arms inside the bus.

[Mr. Foxen]

I'm not reinventing the wheel, I JUST NEED A LINE LEVEL SIGNAL and I'm getting a boost to do so which will probably mean the end of this thread now that I know I won't burn or melt anything running upwards of 500 watts.

If you want a line level signal from an instrument level one, you just need to get a channel strip. Or one of those ART preamps, they are small an nice. But you might find that you are jsut using a term you heard for what you think you want, and it isn't actually what you think it means.

[moose23]

That ART suggestion might be the best suggestion so far.