which drum machine/groovebox for stoner

Stoney Pete · March 05, 2014, 10:37:53 AM

Hi guys,

I've got a question for those familiar with synths, drum machines, grooveboxes etc.

I'm an intermediate guitar player with a penchant for doomy and hypnotic stoner metal. Since I suck at being in a band however I want to do it on my own and use something like a groovebox to create the beats and synth sounds as the background for my guitar playing. Quite possibly I want to sing through a vocoder as well.

My question to you is: What kind of groovebox or other equipment can you recommend?

Here a few things that must be taken into consideration:
1) I'm a bit clumsy when it comes to technology, so nothing to difficult.
2) I can't really play keyboard.
3) It must be capable of doomy, industrial and psychedelic sounds.
4) I'm relatively poor so nothing to expensive.

So what kind of equipment can you recommend?

By the way, here are my soundcloud-tracks, to give you some idea of the direction I want to take musically: https://soundcloud.com/stoney-pete

Thanks in advance for your comments!

kojak · March 05, 2014, 10:53:43 AM

welcome, the tunes sound good

there is another forum here where you might have more luck finding answers to your questions, tho, over in the Jam Room. lottsa gear talk going on over there

http://stonerrocklives.com/forum/index.php?board=4.0

JemDooM · March 05, 2014, 10:55:21 AM

Hey Pete! Paste this over to the 'jam room', the guys on this section are only interested if you're posting pictures of huge penis's and boobies, quick before they see you!

RAGER · March 05, 2014, 11:14:17 AM

It wouldn't hurt to post dick and boob pics though.

JemDooM · March 05, 2014, 11:25:14 AM

your stuff sounds really good! sorry I cant help with your question though, I genuinely took about 5 minutes to figure out that the reason no sound was coming out of my amp was because I hadn't plugged the lead in last time I played so...

liquidsmoke · March 05, 2014, 11:25:43 AM

Quote from: Stoney Pete on March 05, 2014, 10:37:53 AM
Hi guys,

I've got a question for those familiar with synths, drum machines, grooveboxes etc.

I'm an intermediate guitar player with a penchant for doomy and hypnotic stoner metal. Since I suck at being in a band however I want to do it on my own and use something like a groovebox to create the beats and synth sounds as the background for my guitar playing. Quite possibly I want to sing through a vocoder as well.

My question to you is: What kind of groovebox or other equipment can you recommend?

Here a few things that must be taken into consideration:
1) I'm a bit clumsy when it comes to technology, so nothing to difficult.
2) I can't really play keyboard.
3) It must be capable of doomy, industrial and psychedelic sounds.
4) I'm relatively poor so nothing to expensive.

So what kind of equipment can you recommend?

By the way, here are my soundcloud-tracks, to give you some idea of the direction I want to take musically: https://soundcloud.com/stoney-pete

Thanks in advance for your comments!

So you want to create sequenced beats and synth sounds to play over? You might just want to get a laptop with some software. That way you can get just about any sounds going you want but you'll have a steep learning curve to battle. When you say 'doomy, industrial, and psychedlic sounds' that could mean so many different things. Doom metal drum patterns, '70s industrial sounds, and '60s psychedelic rock sounds or something a lot different than all of that? Can you describe the type of ideas you have in more detail? Any way you slice it you are going to have a lot to learn if you want to create loops and/or sequenced patterns to play guitar over. Your recordings show some promise and it sounds like you've got the psychedelic thing covered on guitar. What type of industrial bands are you into? Your playing doesn't remind me of those styles at all. A friend of mine uses FruityLoops on his PC for electronic compositions and he records guitar into it as well.

Stoney Pete · March 06, 2014, 02:17:53 AM

Quote from: JemDooM on March 05, 2014, 11:25:14 AM
your stuff sounds really good! sorry I cant help with your question though, I genuinely took about 5 minutes to figure out that the reason no sound was coming out of my amp was because I hadn't plugged the lead in last time I played so...

Ha, that sounds recognizable... I have similar problems: cables into the wrong inputs, the output level on one of my stomp boxes all the way down, the volume on my guitar all the way down, all by accident... and then it takes me precious minutes to figure out why no sound comes out of my amp... I'm a total fokking disaster when it comes to gear...

Stoney Pete · March 06, 2014, 02:49:16 AM

Quote from: liquidsmoke on March 05, 2014, 11:25:43 AM

So you want to create sequenced beats and synth sounds to play over? You might just want to get a laptop with some software. That way you can get just about any sounds going you want but you'll have a steep learning curve to battle. When you say 'doomy, industrial, and psychedlic sounds' that could mean so many different things. Doom metal drum patterns, '70s industrial sounds, and '60s psychedelic rock sounds or something a lot different than all of that? Can you describe the type of ideas you have in more detail? Any way you slice it you are going to have a lot to learn if you want to create loops and/or sequenced patterns to play guitar over. Your recordings show some promise and it sounds like you've got the psychedelic thing covered on guitar. What type of industrial bands are you into? Your playing doesn't remind me of those styles at all. A friend of mine uses FruityLoops on his PC for electronic compositions and he records guitar into it as well.

Thanks for your comments man... I though about doing it all on my laptop, it's just that I don't find laptops easy to use... but maybe that's no problem when I get the right software.... Up till now I've been using Magix which has great drum sounds (up to a point) but sucks when it comes to synth and bass sounds... So if you can recommend some software I'd really appreciate it...

The French band Crown is a good example of what I would like to do...

I know it's pretty vague what I want... I want something very versatile so I can experiment and take different directions... As for industrial sounds, I'm thinking of Nine Inch Nails (Downward Spiral), Front 242, Fear Factory, Crown and similar bands.... I'm not really that much 'into' industrial bands, it's just that I think that industrial beats and sounds fit well with the guitar sound I have in mind... Imagine Sleep's Dopesmoker with electronic beats and sounds... That's the kind of music I would like to make...

I think Krautrock would also be an influence....

Stoner dub would be a good description of what I would like to do... minus the reggea rhythms... I want metal/industrial beats...

As for Doom, I'm thinking of a combination of Sabbath, Cough, NIN, Front242... so again pretty broad...

As for synth sounds, I would like to be able to program basic long held chords or basic chord progressions, nothing to complicated as long as the synth sounds are cool....

So the basic requirements I need are a drum machine with industrial beats (no dance sounds, I hate that shit), a basic synthesizer, good bass sounds and patterns, a sequencer, and the possibility to edit all the sounds, for example to put a delay or distortion on the drum sounds... and all in one machine or one piece of software on my laptop...

Sorry I can't be anymore specific... Perhaps I smoke to much dope

liquidsmoke · March 06, 2014, 11:27:18 AM

Quote from: Stoney Pete on March 06, 2014, 02:49:16 AM
Quote from: liquidsmoke on March 05, 2014, 11:25:43 AM

So you want to create sequenced beats and synth sounds to play over? You might just want to get a laptop with some software. That way you can get just about any sounds going you want but you'll have a steep learning curve to battle. When you say 'doomy, industrial, and psychedlic sounds' that could mean so many different things. Doom metal drum patterns, '70s industrial sounds, and '60s psychedelic rock sounds or something a lot different than all of that? Can you describe the type of ideas you have in more detail? Any way you slice it you are going to have a lot to learn if you want to create loops and/or sequenced patterns to play guitar over. Your recordings show some promise and it sounds like you've got the psychedelic thing covered on guitar. What type of industrial bands are you into? Your playing doesn't remind me of those styles at all. A friend of mine uses FruityLoops on his PC for electronic compositions and he records guitar into it as well.

Thanks for your comments man... I though about doing it all on my laptop, it's just that I don't find laptops easy to use... but maybe that's no problem when I get the right software.... Up till now I've been using Magix which has great drum sounds (up to a point) but sucks when it comes to synth and bass sounds... So if you can recommend some software I'd really appreciate it...

The French band Crown is a good example of what I would like to do...

I know it's pretty vague what I want... I want something very versatile so I can experiment and take different directions... As for industrial sounds, I'm thinking of Nine Inch Nails (Downward Spiral), Front 242, Fear Factory, Crown and similar bands.... I'm not really that much 'into' industrial bands, it's just that I think that industrial beats and sounds fit well with the guitar sound I have in mind... Imagine Sleep's Dopesmoker with electronic beats and sounds... That's the kind of music I would like to make...

I think Krautrock would also be an influence....

Stoner dub would be a good description of what I would like to do... minus the reggea rhythms... I want metal/industrial beats...

As for Doom, I'm thinking of a combination of Sabbath, Cough, NIN, Front242... so again pretty broad...

As for synth sounds, I would like to be able to program basic long held chords or basic chord progressions, nothing to complicated as long as the synth sounds are cool....

So the basic requirements I need are a drum machine with industrial beats (no dance sounds, I hate that shit), a basic synthesizer, good bass sounds and patterns, a sequencer, and the possibility to edit all the sounds, for example to put a delay or distortion on the drum sounds... and all in one machine or one piece of software on my laptop...

Sorry I can't be anymore specific... Perhaps I smoke to much dope

That's pretty specific. Front 242 was a pioneer of 'electronic body music' which is generally very danceable stuff but I think I understand what you are saying. To me there is something very appealing about using hardware vs software and in fact years back when I was into making experimental electronic industrial/noise/whatever type stuff I didn't use a PC. I'm pretty sure there are many groovebox and workstation type machines out there that can do exactly what you are talking about. I highly suggest getting one that has a built in sampler. In a way I'm the wrong person to be responding this thread because I have very little experience with the more modern units that would suit you. If I was you I'd do a lot of Google searching like this- http://www.google.com/search?q=groovebox+workstation+sampler+synth&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ei=Y6AYU_jFEse6qgHiuYG4Cg&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1561&bih=934
and watch a ton of youtube video demos on these units. You should be able to get a lot of specific recommendations on electronic gear forums but Google searching will also lead you to threads on forums where people have asked the same exact questions.

I'm very tempted to start reading up on these types of machines myself but I don't have the time or money to get into more sounds right now.

RAGER · March 06, 2014, 01:49:19 PM

I use a Korg Electribe MX-1. The blue one. The ESX is a sampler too. Try one of those. They have some built in effects but you could always use some outboard stuff with it. At the moment I don't use any software but I'm looking into but I'm looking into a specific Arturia midi controller that has software for 3500 different synth sounds. I probably won't even use that aspect of it.

Stoney Pete · March 06, 2014, 02:16:59 PM

Thanks for the advice guys! I think I'm going for one of the grooveboxes, perhaps Roland or Korg...I checked out the Korg Electribe on Youtube and that sounds a lot like what I have in mind...

sanovine · March 06, 2014, 05:16:23 PM

I have a Korg EMX and recommend it, sorta. But first some other important bits:

If you want something with industrial beats, basslines, synths and effects all in one box, then to be honest you're probably better off with a laptop. You'll get the best quality sounds, most versatile and capable functionality etc etc

The point of grooveboxes is the _workflow_, which is not something you mentioned, and leads me to believe you don't really get this point. The EMX is a savagely good drum sequencer, with limitations. The sounds are pretty generic electronic. You mention dance is shit, but industrial is what you want, but really there's not much of a difference in the source sounds, it's in the effects processing applied to the sounds. The EMX is pretty weak in regards to effects, so you need to know if you are ok with some generic (but good) 909 and 808 style sounds with a few basic effects on them, with great hands-on editing and programming. The whole machine is wonderful to jam on, if that's how you want to roll, that's what the machine is for. It has 5 monophonic synth parts, with very limited chord capability. These all sound kinda rough to me, are not very editable (the envelopes are really limited), and it's difficult to get the dance, trance cheese sound out of it. You can get a few good bass sounds, some noises, and you can get loads of digitally distorted crazy wacko stuff by going mental on the knobs. It's got a distinctive sound to it tho which is quite obvious, and needs some extra external effects. Overall it's voice is nasty, dirty, distorted, digital, harsh, untamed and rough. Since it's only got 4 outs you end up being very limited in what external effects you can apply to what parts if you want to do everything live. But it's wicked for just jamming out ideas.

The ESX is the sister unit to the EMX, you can load samples into it but for some reason I didn't click with mine at all and eventually sold it.

If you want precise sound control, loop mangling, excellent sequencing, drum pads, and dont mind editing and applying effects on a computer, an MPC1000 is pretty awesome. It's an _excellent_ midi sequencer, and can handle basic audio tracks too so you could have overdubs of guitar in there along with loops, beats and noises. Much tighter control over whats going on than an EMX, and can sound exactly as you want (but you'll need to produce some samples on a computer first, and transfer them over, and use mpc to sequence and construct tunes). Its more of a sequencer and song arranging/construction thing than a synth and drummachine, although it can do that too. The bad thing is it's synth and sound mangling capability is a bit limited. You'd need to use loops, or, drive an external synth via midi (which it excells at). I use my MPC paired with an Access Virus B for all my synth stuff, drum and bass, dubstep, industrial, dark mean evil techno, etc and my EMX for bread and butter drums, with some loops and grooves on the mpc.

Don't be turned off by all the hip hop heads using the mpc. It's really flexible and deep, if a bit fiddly at times.

I've previously owned a machinedrum, but this is probably not gonna cut it for you. The interface is lovely, and it's very smooth, but it only ever sounds like machinedrum minimal techno. And no synth part to speak of. And you'll need external effects too.

I've previously owned an emu command station xl7 too and this is ok if you can get one cheap. Kinda cheesy tho, no sampling, feels a bit dated. The r1mx is popular in the live groovebox scene, but i can't comment on it really.

Note once again that computers can do all of the above, but these machines have one killer advantage, they are rock solid stable, do only a limited number of things but do that very very well. It's all about the workflow and making the technology into an instrument rather than dicking around with a mouse all the time.

let me know if you got any specific questions..

eyeprod · March 06, 2014, 08:55:25 PM

I'd say get a dedicated synthesizer and a dedicated drum machine. I agree hardware is more intuitive and usable in a practical sense. Granted the laptop can always do more, its just a pain in the ass to work with sometimes. Any old crappy drum machine could possibly suit your needs. Run that shit through a good synth like a mini or micro brute and you can tweak it to your hearts content to get the cool filter sounds and whatnot. Then use a looper pedal or some sort of recording device to put the shit together. This is just one possibility but it's sort of how I'm doing it and for me it works really well.

EddieMullet · March 06, 2014, 09:43:56 PM

I'll recommend an old Alesis SR 16 or Boss DR 550 those old drum machines can be picked up for dirt cheap plus they have a decent amount of pre set beats that you can work with.

Get some kind of cheap multi track recorder and a cheap used bass. With with the guitar skills you already got you should be well on your way without having to bother with learning how to do shit using a computer.

Lay the drum machine down on the multi track add the bass then jam away over it.

I recommend Tascam stuff because it pretty much still works like the old cassette based multi tracks push 1 button to arm the track, set level, hit record and go, no menus or shit to have to go through.

everdrone · March 07, 2014, 12:28:21 AM

well the title says which drum machine/groovebox for stoner

but, I think the toontrack Superior 2.0 with the metal foundry sounds the best for heavy rock. that is what I use. you could just make recordings of it as a backing track if you will play live using it.

Stoney Pete · March 07, 2014, 03:40:54 AM

Thanks again for all your comments... it has been really helpful!

Since I generally hate computers and tend to get very frustrated by software, I am very much inclined to go for a groovebox... also because I want to use it live and I want to be able to jam on it.... a groovebox just seems so much more suited for that than a laptop...

Of all the grooveboxes, sequencers and drum machines you guys have recommended the Korg EMX seems to me to be my thing... the only drawback is that it doesn't have a sampler, but the EMX demo's on Youtube all sound great... it can produce these really gritty, dark, Industrial sounds as well as more ambient, atmospheric things... It's synth sounds are very nice... You can plug a guitar into it... And the videos suggest that it's all very easy to use, it's easy to tweak the sounds, the interface seems very logical...

This does not seem to be the case with the Roland MC808, where you have the plug the damn thing into the computer to be able to edit the sounds... in that case you might just as well go for software all the way....

Also one thing in favor of the Korg EMX is the price: you can get one for around 200 euro's second hand... which is my price range...

Anyhow, from all your comments I gather I still have a lot to learn, so I have to a bit more research... but as for now the Korg EMX seems like a winner... On all the fora and videos I have checked the EMX is highly recommended....

Thanks again for all your comments!

Stoney Pete · March 07, 2014, 04:00:30 AM

One thing I would like to add: I see the Korg EMX has tubes, which you can active to give some analogue feel to the sound or create fuzz sounds all the way down to disortion... This seems to me a particularly nice feature if you want to make stoner metal like I do....

How do you think about this tube option on the Korg? Is this unique to the Korg or do other grooveboxes have this option as well?

sanovine · March 07, 2014, 04:07:18 AM

The emx might be difficult to control with foot pedals. It uses custom nrpm messages for track mutes and other stuff, so many foot controllers won't handle that. I think it listens to program change messages in a somewhat peculiar way, if you send it a pc msg it'll queue up the next pattern (drum beat, verse, chorus, whatever) but only change at the end of the current pattern. This is unusual because most gear will switch immediately, but probably an advantage in your case.

sanovine · March 07, 2014, 04:11:30 AM

The tubes are unique to the korg electribes. They are starve plated, and only the master out runs through them, not the 3&4 out. They do work though, and are aenice touch, but you'll probably want to try a few different kinds until you find something that suits. It lends a nice bit of fuzz to the whole thing, as if it wasn't driven enough already. The box is dirttty.

Stoney Pete · March 07, 2014, 09:35:33 AM

So the tubes are unique to the Korg... And it's a dirty box

Okay, that's it for me...The Korg EMX it's gonna be... I heard you guys like boob pics and stuff... So to reward all you guys for your very helpful comments I give you.... (drumroll please).... LUBA!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlien_bikini-luba_redband