using mega watt tube amps for guitar (SVT, Bassman 300, Classic 400, etc)

[Jake]

...because part of what we love so much is that volume...

Well I disagree with just about everything you said, but especially that nugget. Unless by "we" you mean you and Spook.

[VOLVO)))]

I leave my Model T at 10... and my 5-watt blackheart at 10... 

[Mr. Foxen]

This is my front room:



Trick is not being a cunt to your neighbours, and talking to them and such, that way, they won't use you being loud sometimes to be cunts to you.

[Metal and Beer]

**Anecdotal Evidence Alert**

I've seen thousands of bands and at this point, the best guitar tones for me come from largish combos and/or 50W heads into one 4x12. Rare is the full stack emitting sweet aural honey in a normal room (most clubs). Also, every band I've ever been in sounded way better in the jam room when dudes (and me where applicable ) had to use one cab instead of two...

/Mileage May Vary, taste is subjective, lots o' variables w/ rooms, soundguys, FX, etc

[clockwork green]

Scale matters, the same tone at a lesser volume just doesn't sound as good. If you want you use the retarded masses as an example then so will I...why are home theater systems so much more common now? Wouldn't hi-fi speakers at 90dB's be just as good as those at 105dB's? Of course they're not. Maybe you guys got some shitty ass tone with your amp on 10 because it certainly takes some work getting a rig to handle high volume without falling apart. Hell, the most painful live tone I've ever heard was a cranked 25-watt solid state amp because it produced nothing but piercing, harshness but some of the best was not just quality tone but loud in a warm, chest thumping way. It's a shame that Matt Pike 3-4 Matamp stacks rig never lasted long but that tone was blissfull...never harsh or strident like he is now. We take in music with more than our ears and scaling it down just won't have the same effect on the listener. There is also the big iron effect. 50-watt Marshall's never sound as good to me as 100-watt Marshall's just like power tube and phase inverter distortion sound better to me than preamp distortion. EL34's and 6L6's also sound better to me than the overly chimey EL84 and the muddy low end of the 6V6 so that's another issue I have with smaller amps.

[b00gie van]

I'll say it again: YOU NEED LOUDER SPEAKERS. Not a bigger amp. Not more cabs. Louder speakers!

If you like the tone of your Swamp Thangs, take the cheap speakers out of your 4x12 and replace them with more Swamp Thangs. Your cab will sound between 2 and 8 times louder, depending on how crappy the stock speakers are.

[Lumpy]

I'm surprised that his Matamp wasn't loud enough, because the few bands I've seen using Matamps were louder than fuck, and the amps can do super-clean at high volume (in my limited experience).

This could just be a case of loudness wars. Like maybe the other dudes in his band are too loud, so he has to be even louder to be heard over them.

[Mr. Foxen]

Scale matters, the same tone at a lesser volume just doesn't sound as good. If you want you use the retarded masses as an example then so will I...why are home theater systems so much more common now? Wouldn't hi-fi speakers at 90dB's be just as good as those at 105dB's? Of course they're not. Maybe you guys got some shitty ass tone with your amp on 10 because it certainly takes some work getting a rig to handle high volume without falling apart. Hell, the most painful live tone I've ever heard was a cranked 25-watt solid state amp because it produced nothing but piercing, harshness but some of the best was not just quality tone but loud in a warm, chest thumping way. It's a shame that Matt Pike 3-4 Matamp stacks rig never lasted long but that tone was blissfull...never harsh or strident like he is now. We take in music with more than our ears and scaling it down just won't have the same effect on the listener.

The stuff not sounding the same at different volumes is because of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves

[spookstrickland]

The reason that smaller amps are popular is that people are just getting fucking lamer. There are a million threads on the gear page about guys looking for super quiet amps that won't disturb their precious neighbors or their sensitive soundmen at the weekly blues jamboree. Aside from a studio, you just can't recreate the sound of a great, large, cranked amp with any small amp because part of what we love so much is that volume. A 1-watt amp with all the power tube distortion in the world won't thump your chest and it won't give you the dynamics of a pushed speaker. Even places with great PA's never sound as good as the standing right in front of the amp...at least not yet.

Exactly, if your chest is not pumping and your pant legs vibrating and your hands are not tingling then you are not playing loud enough :-)

[clockwork green]

Look what you people have reduced me to...I almost agree with Spook on something.  I'm banning myself.

[Jake]

You made that bed. Time to gt cozy.

No one is disputing that a one watt amp is going to sound as rich and full as something that is 30-100 watts.
But you all are insane if you think something like a dimed blackface Bassman (or even a tweed Bassman) is not gonna be loud enough to get a good, chest-thumping, speaker-pushing sound. What are those, like 40-60 watts?

[Lumpy]

You made that bed. Time to gt cozy.

No one is disputing that a one watt amp is going to sound as rich and full as something that is 30-100 watts.
But you all are insane if you think something like a dimed blackface Bassman (or even a tweed Bassman) is not gonna be loud enough to get a good, chest-thumping, speaker-pushing sound. What are those, like 40-60 watts?

I friend of mine plays guitar through a silverface Bassman, and a matching old Fender 2x12 (who knows what speakers). It's not loud enough. It sounds like poo (muffled).

Folks need a good speaker cabinet, that's a big part of the equation. Vintage heads are cool, but vintage speaker cabs less cool, because those speakers are sometimes beat up. Plus, I think there have been improvements in speaker technology since the 60s. Old head + newer speakers/cab = hella groovy.

[Jake]

I meant through a 4x12. And I don't think that the Silverfaces sound good either.

[RacerX]

Shit, I have 100 watts available between both sides of my power amp. One side runs into an old 4x12 SUNN cab and the other into an Avatar 2x12 loaded with 30 watt Hellatones. That's 6 12s, which move a respectable amount of air. That lets me use the low power setting on the power amp, which knocks the output down from 50 to 15 watts per side. Volume controls both set at about 3 o'clock where the power tube distortion is in effect, and that's PLENTY loud enough. Sometimes for bigger rooms, I might edge the volumes up to 4 o'clock.

If I turned my rig up all the way on the high power setting in a club, it would ridiculously and unbearably loud. Maybe if I play an arena gig.  

[spookstrickland]

Look what you people have reduced me to...I almost agree with Spook on something.  I'm banning myself.

I bet we agree on more things than you think. 

Cheers

[liquidsmoke]

[liquidsmoke]

 



I'll let you guys know how the beast sounds if I buy it tomorrow.

Regarding cabs, thinking that a loud horizontal 2x12 would be good to try under my diagonal slant 2x12 if I could find one used for cheap. I have not abandoned the 4x12 idea either though.

[Mr. Foxen]

I'll let you guys know how the beast sounds if I buy it tomorrow.

Regarding cabs, thinking that a loud horizontal 2x12 would be good to try under my diagonal slant 2x12 if I could find one used for cheap. I have not abandoned the 4x12 idea either though.

More vertical and narrow your speaker column is, the better you'll be able to hear it, because the dispersion is better off to the sides and ceiling/floor reflections are minimised. So vertical 2x12 is better, as long as you like the sound coming out of them, because you;ll be able to hear the sound. A lot of people fucking hate their sound though, and generally in those cases, I agree.

[Chovie D]

You made that bed. Time to gt cozy.

No one is disputing that a one watt amp is going to sound as rich and full as something that is 30-100 watts.
But you all are insane if you think something like a dimed blackface Bassman (or even a tweed Bassman) is not gonna be loud enough to get a good, chest-thumping, speaker-pushing sound. What are those, like 40-60 watts?

I friend of mine plays guitar through a silverface Bassman, and a matching old Fender 2x12 (who knows what speakers). It's not loud enough. It sounds like poo (muffled).

Folks need a good speaker cabinet, that's a big part of the equation. Vintage heads are cool, but vintage speaker cabs less cool, because those speakers are sometimes beat up. Plus, I think there have been improvements in speaker technology since the 60s. Old head + newer speakers/cab = hella groovy.

fender cabs and speakers are notoriously shitty . with the exception of their JBL loaded  stuff .
fenders that need servicing can operate at reduced volumes too tho.
In general i agree with what you said (exception for small combos that require the vintage speakers or those jbl loaded fenders). I run all my heads thru modern speaker cabs , nothing special, avatars, but all with newer V30's and GH12whatevers. The 4x12 sounds better to me than the 2x12 FWIW.
Your friend should try a few other cabs with his head and see what happens 

btw our bass player used a fifty watt silverface bassman for the entire existence of our band. I used a 40 watt head for guitar. we were reasonably loud, no complaints.

IN my breif tenure with the bronze i used a 120 watt sunn into two borrowed 4 x12's, becuase the other guys had similar rigs. It was stupid.

[Mr. Foxen]

In fairness, guitarist in Sonance found his Orange Dual Terror to not be loud enough even with two 4x12s. Other guitarist using a 450w SS head and bassist using an SVT into a 4x15 and a Matamp GTV into a 4x12 might be main reason though.

[liquidsmoke]

Although that Crate is probably a steal at $450 I decided against even driving the 70 miles to check it out. I just don't want an 80lb head. I don't really want a 4x12 either, my 2x12(size of a smaller 4x12) is only 65 pounds but I don't enjoy lugging that around even. If I can get another 2x12 of some sort(with LOUD speakers of course) and have enough volume I'll be adding vertical height to hear myself better and save my shoulders and back some grief. Regardless of that I'll probably get a class D solid state rack power amp and some type of rack pre so I don't have to lug my Ampeg around. As I previously stated something is wrong with the Ampeg and I don't know if I trust it all that well for gigs. I am curious about Fender guitar tube heads(there is an "original condition" but "working" '72 Bassman 100 on the local Craiglist for $475) though as I suspect running one clean with my pedal might sound similar to a SS amp in that I'd have lots of clean headroom, possibly even enough clean headroom... but why fuck with a 40 year old tube head when I don't have to?

I'll try to forget about amps until I get another good, loud cab but it won't be easy while my bandmates can't hear me very well at practice.

[moose23]

Have you any rough recordings of what you sound like so we can hear what's happening?

[liquidsmoke]

Have you any rough recordings of what you sound like so we can hear what's happening?

Not much to hear really, just my Ampeg clipping I guess.

I can put a short clip of my tone on Soundcloud just for the hell of it this weekend if I make the time.

[moose23]

Do, be cool to get an idea of what your band sounds like too.

[Chovie D]

Although that Crate is probably a steal at $450 I decided against even driving the 70 miles to check it out. I just don't want an 80lb head. I don't really want a 4x12 either, my 2x12(size of a smaller 4x12) is only 65 pounds but I don't enjoy lugging that around even. If I can get another 2x12 of some sort(with LOUD speakers of course) and have enough volume I'll be adding vertical height to hear myself better and save my shoulders and back some grief. Regardless of that I'll probably get a class D solid state rack power amp and some type of rack pre so I don't have to lug my Ampeg around. As I previously stated something is wrong with the Ampeg and I don't know if I trust it all that well for gigs. I am curious about Fender guitar tube heads(there is an "original condition" but "working" '72 Bassman 100 on the local Craiglist for $475) though as I suspect running one clean with my pedal might sound similar to a SS amp in that I'd have lots of clean headroom, possibly even enough clean headroom... but why fuck with a 40 year old tube head when I don't have to?

I'll try to forget about amps until I get another good, loud cab but it won't be easy while my bandmates can't hear me very well at practice.

I have a 100 watt 1968 fender showman. If I crank it all the way up, it does breakup into a really nice Stonesy Grind. Thats hard to acheive because oits so damn loud. I start to hear a little hair about midway up, but I dont really ever turn it past 3 and have the entire volume output reduced by the space echo.

If you want pretty much endless clean headroom I think you should look into the ultralinear fenders like the bassman 135.
Honestly tho, the tiny bit of harmonic distortion you get from a regular fender 50 or 100 watt is gloriously beautiful, I cannot understand why any guitar player would not want that option.

why would you want to fuck around with a 40 year old tube amp? because they sound fantastic and they are built to last . They are still here 40 years later, while your 3 year old crate heads to the landfill, all that chinese pcb shit will be in the landfill while these amps go on for 100 years more.