The Jam Room Blog Thread.

[JemDooM]

Quick question about cabs/wattage again guys?

The watts of the cabs needs to be high enough for the head, if you have two cabs is that each or combined? For example the head is 400w, do you need 2 x 200w cabs or 2 x 400w?

[jibberish]

hi jumz. in a quick word : yes, the total power of the amp is split between the two cabs equally, if the cabs are equal ohms. (this is not answering your question at this point)
However, which wattage cabs you need may not be that obvious.

I would like to describe one thing about SS amps regarding power out vs speaker ohms.  SS amps pour out more juice as the ohms gets lower. less resistance to current flow. this means that the amp can deliver more power(watts) to a lower value ohms of the speakers.

I can only think of one possibly gotcha, and I bet as long as you are close you probably are ok, but here goes anyway.
lets say they hand you a 400watt into 8 ohm/600watt into 4 ohm style amp, and 2 200w 8 ohm cabs. it kind of looks like this will be cool, but when you hook both cabs up, how do they go? in parallel? or in series?   

parallel combines down to 4 ohms and this hookup will put 600 watts total to your pair of 200watt cabs. maybe those 200w cabs like 300w, maybe they don't.
series adds up to 16ohms. unfortunately, there is no real nice 16ohm tap like on a tube amp. all that happens is that current flow gets strangled and now maybe this 400w amp can only do 200 watts total, so 100watts a cab isn't going to be as loud. it will be safe for the cabs tho.

if the amp is a 400w into 4 ohm speakers and you have those 8ohm 200w cabs in parallel, the match is perfect.  the 2 8ohms parallels down to 4ohms total and the watts handling adds to 400watts total.

sry for the book. I just get rolling and go.

[JemDooM]

Don't apologise jibbs it's interesting and you describe it well!

It's starting to sink in now but I still find it daunting, less worried about damaging stuff now iv learned more but still concerned over the potential to dislike the sound of a new set up. My head is 450w min 4ohm I think, iv decided to take my 8ohm bass 4x12 to the gigs this weekend despite being asked by one to use their backline to save space. I can't get hold of the person who has the info on gear specs so all I know is that it's 2 4x12 peavy guitar cabs or 2 orange ppc 2x12, all of which are probably 16ohm from what I can see online, I guess the peavys are 300-400w and the oranges 120w. So I guess I'm right in thinking the oranges would be no good and the peavys could be a good possibility..... ?

[jibberish]

..taking a break from hustling houseplants into the house..it is about to get cold...
ok, i'm trying my best to effectively communicate because once this all clicks, you are free heh.

I hope someone else who knows those cabs can jump in with real world experience.

your 450watts at 4ohms will be something like 300 +/- running into 8 ohms.
both 16ohm cabs in parallel, of course will drop to 8 ohms total which is what the amp sees.
so now do you want to really open those oranges up all the way or run 800watts capacity 4x12 peaveys?
I think somewhere here , you have to figure out how each setup sounds for final decision.

one more crazy idea    parallel your 8 ohm bass cab and both orange 2x12's all together. this gives you full amp 450watts because you are showing the amp 4ohms by paralleling 1 8ohm+ 2 16 ohms.  power distro is like so:  each single 16ohm orange will only get half of what the bass cab gets, or in other words bass cab gets half the total at 8 ohms, and the 8 ohm parallel pair of oranges gets the other half to split evenly: bass gets 1/2, each orange gets 1/4 total amp power

SO..heh, this triple parallel would put half the total(225watts) into the 8 ohm bass cab. it would then put half of that into each orange like 112. I think this would make the most noise of any combo of those 5 cabs.

[JemDooM]

That's an awesome idea I wouldn't have known about that! Can I take you with me? so I presume the bass cab into one output and the 2x12s into the other linked? So 8ohm cab + 2 x 16ohm cab = 4ohm which = full power?

[jibberish]

That's an awesome idea I wouldn't have known about that! Can I take you with me? so I presume the bass cab into one output and the 2x12s into the other linked? So 8ohm cab + 2 x 16ohm cab = 4ohm which = full power?

Yes ma'am, you got it.

and to answer all your questions there: yes, yes*, yes.....and yes. haha.

* as long as you mean linked=parallel

[agent of change]

OHMG this is the one topic that makes me glad I'm a drummer - I just can't seem to wrap my head around it. Hit drums with sticks - no problem.

Sent from my anal chakra with 3rd degree Reiki

[liquidsmoke]

j with 2 p pups..

A J with both types of pups would be great. I wonder if they ever made a Mexican or Squire version. I could of course have a J pup put into mine.

[JemDooM]

Awesome jibbs, you have taught me well, I'm relieved to realise it's finally starting to sink in, I was starting to think I'd never get it! (Oh yeah I meant parallel but that the two oranges would be linked (series'd) together?

Agent let's not get started on drums! every time I try to help my bandmates set up or take down their kit I end up a mangled mess on the floor covered in cuts and bruises ok maybe not as bad but I always get hurt every time!

[MichaelZodiac]

We were supposed to play our first show tonight but the show got cancelled and the touring band got added to another show. Ran into the promotor later at another show and he asked if we wanted to play with a cool Swedish band in february in a bigger venue to make up for it. Sweet.

Also we just rehearsed instead and fine tuned the set a bit more so definitely no loss. Better preparation for the first real one at the end of the month.

[Dylan Thomas]

true, but id like to stop just short of police contact..me and cops dont mix well..

Yeah, makes sense.

An old garage punk band I was playing in, The Neon Tits, got banned from our hometown for a flyer.  The singer was really, really good at being offensive.  We had songs like "God Hates You Because You're Gay", "Fuck Canada", "The Jews Have Ruined My Pecker", and we were working on a new one called "It Was A Dark Day In Blacksburg And I've Got The Yellow Fever".  It was the week after the Virginia Tech killings, that was what the song was about.  It went beyond our general level of offensiveness, I think the opening lines were something like "Me Chinese, me play joke, shoot up school and make guns smoke."  We were already banned from a lot of venues for various shenanigans, like damaging the venue, or just playing The Ronettes "Be My Baby" over and over again, or just chanting "U. S. A.!!! U. S. A.!!!" over and over again while running around the stage wearing American flags instead of playing any songs, the usual kinda stuff.

I had a copy of Newsweek that had a picture of the VaTech killer on the cover, with all of his victims in the background.  The singer asked if he could borrow it.  Next thing you know, he'd made a flyer out of that and posted it everywhere about an upcoming show, and we were banned from playing the venue on the flyer.  The owner was PISSED.  We did one more show at a restaurant, as every other music venue in town followed suit and banned us.  The band kinda fell apart after, which wasn't surprising, as it was designed to be a trainwreck to begin with.

im pretty sure I would have loved that band.. haha. im thinking UxSx needs to cover "It Was A Dark Day In Blacksburg And I've Got The Yellow Fever".  you got any recording so I can learn that one??

Ah shit, we never recorded anything, and we never even got to play that song live.  I remember it was that stupid really generic/stereotypical "Chinese" melody you always hear, played over and over again with the singer screaming offensive and stereotypical things.

[liquidsmoke]

For volume, theoretically how much louder would 350 SS watts into two 4x10s be over 800 watts into one 4x10? Assuming the cabs would be the same. Baritone bass side planning.

[Dylan Thomas]

For volume, theoretically how much louder would 350 SS watts into two 4x10s be over 800 watts into one 4x10? Assuming the cabs would be the same. Baritone bass side planning.

Depends on the resistance/ohms.

Two 4x10's will push more air, and often give a "perception" of more actual volume.

[agent of change]

This is how I think about it too. I want our sound to be "wider" not louder. I don't know shit about ohms and watts but I do know that so far more cabs been exactly what I want to hear and feel.

Sent from my anal chakra with 3rd degree Reiki

[liquidsmoke]

For volume, theoretically how much louder would 350 SS watts into two 4x10s be over 800 watts into one 4x10? Assuming the cabs would be the same. Baritone bass side planning.

Depends on the resistance/ohms.

Two 4x10's will push more air, and often give a "perception" of more actual volume.

The numbers are RMS that the cabs would receive, I've factored in the ohms. 2 different amps.

Today I snagged 2 I believe fairly well built 15s with Eminence speakers for $50 each so I'm not as concerned with the 4x10 idea. Will post pics later this week in the new gear thread.

[mortlock]

For volume, theoretically how much louder would 350 SS watts into two 4x10s be over 800 watts into one 4x10? Assuming the cabs would be the same. Baritone bass side planning.

Depends on the resistance/ohms.

Two 4x10's will push more air, and often give a "perception" of more actual volume.

what exactly does 'perception of volume' mean. either its loud or it isn't.. unless youre referring to different levels of deafness in people..

[Dylan Thomas]

For volume, theoretically how much louder would 350 SS watts into two 4x10s be over 800 watts into one 4x10? Assuming the cabs would be the same. Baritone bass side planning.

Depends on the resistance/ohms.

Two 4x10's will push more air, and often give a "perception" of more actual volume.

what exactly does 'perception of volume' mean. either its loud or it isn't.. unless youre referring to different levels of deafness in people..

Well, think about it.  If you have a 4x10 pushing a lot of volume, it's loud, though if it ain't going through the PA, it's just 4 speakers.

If you've got three 8 x 10's pushing not as much volume, it can sound fuller without being louder wattage or even decibel wise.  To your ears/mind, it often will sound much louder even if it technically is not.

[jibberish]

hey jumz, I hope it isnt too, late, but that linking issue... if those 2 oranges are series, that will be 32 ohms. that will be really quiet through those 2 oranges.
they should all be parallel to each other. need a parallel box, not series box.

SERIES BAD, PARALLEL GOOD, accept no substitutes. heh.

edit: IF the orange cabs are each 4 ohm then link them series. if they are 16 ohm, link then parallel: the goal is total of 8 ohms so that that pair matches the 8 ohms of your bass cab, to keep everything divvied up evenly

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IMO, speakers sound biggest when they are being played quietly by amps that have huge headroom.  everyone just sits the fuck down when I play my stereo. it is so huge sounding yet we can talk over the actual volume.  but I have 6 nice speakers all playing at 0.1 watt or 0.5 watt w/e and it is so huge and rich.
basically I agree with what dinger is trying to explain here. it is not hard numbers, it is an impression or illusion or wtf.

BOSE is really good with that acoustic voodoo and they have strange methods for bass enhancement and room filling etc

It seemed to me, for playing an instrument,you have to balance tone with efficiency.  pushing speakers to capacity opens them up all the way and they sound different than speakers playing relaxedly

the bass cab+orange+orange would run those speakers with amp power matched closely to their capacity. IDK, does this range give more performance expression options?

there is a chance the 2 400 watt peavey 4x12's would be louder, but I doubt it. beefier voice coil costs efficiency. when 400 watts is thru those 400w cabs, they will be louder than the pair of 120w orange cabs, but at 100watts, probably not.

[liquidsmoke]

Had the first 2 piece jam/practice tonight, went well. My back seems to be getting used to the baritone too.

[liquidsmoke]

Well, think about it.  If you have a 4x10 pushing a lot of volume, it's loud, though if it ain't going through the PA, it's just 4 speakers.

If you've got three 8 x 10's pushing not as much volume, it can sound fuller without being louder wattage or even decibel wise.  To your ears/mind, it often will sound much louder even if it technically is not.

IMO, speakers sound biggest when they are being played quietly by amps that have huge headroom.  everyone just sits the fuck down when I play my stereo. it is so huge sounding yet we can talk over the actual volume.  but I have 6 nice speakers all playing at 0.1 watt or 0.5 watt w/e and it is so huge and rich.
basically I agree with what dinger is trying to explain here. it is not hard numbers, it is an impression or illusion or wtf.

BOSE is really good with that acoustic voodoo and they have strange methods for bass enhancement and room filling etc

It seemed to me, for playing an instrument,you have to balance tone with efficiency.  pushing speakers to capacity opens them up all the way and they sound different than speakers playing relaxedly

I agree with these points. I want to add that at mild to moderate volumes my rig tone sounds fantastic to me but at super loud band practice/gig without a PA for the cabs volume everything changes because the nastier harsher sounds come out and the low end can start to fart and sound shitty so it has to come down. I'm talking regular guitars, baritones, and basses. More speakers at a somewhat lower volume is generally better. Most of the stuff you folks here have said over the years is correct. Lots of loud(db) speakers, enough power(but not too much), not too much low end, enough mids to cut, etc. I just had to slowly verify it all myself I guess  

[jibberish]

yep. 

BTW, I figured out another audio trick. Well, bars have done it since forever, but I think more as necessity than tricky audio engineering.

speakers above head level sound huge. speakers mounted up in corners use the whole corner as a giant bass horn and sound extra huge.

[tombhex]

I think I'm going to have to return the TH30. I've got about a week left on my return policy and as much as I like the sound, it just isn't very powerful and it didn't cut at all when I jammed with friends last week. It's a shame, because I can't really afford to upgrade to a higher wattage version of the same amp. I guess back to the drawing board, looking at 100w modern-sounding amps. I missed the chance to get that Peavey JSX because I opted for the TH30 at about a $300 higher pricepoint. Bummer.

[RacerX]

That's TH30 is more of a studio amp, but maybe if you added another cabinet?

[Omlet]

I can't sell my fucking Skervesen. It's obvious why - It's custom made and rather expensive instrument. I guess it will take me several months to get rid of it.

Damn, I need that Ric so badly...

[VOLVO)))]

It's a ridiculous Guitar but definitely a niche market for it