Any signed bands here?

[skydogdiesel]

How did your band get signed?  what is the best way to get distribution?  we've gotten some bites from very small indie labels who can push our record to other markets, book cool shows, the odd festival date-and that's cool and everything, but i wanna reach out to bigger labels like small stone, teepee, drag city, holy mountain.  anyone here signed to these labels?  how'd you get there? 

we're thinking of pressing a small run of cd's of our new record just for the sole purpose of promo and sending out to labels in order to get distro, tour, open for bigger bands.  is this an ideal of the past?  it seems like the music industry is at a plateau where it doesnt know where it's going or how it's going to change ..    looking for your thoughts, ideas and opinions....

[Hemisaurus]

Whenever i hear signed I always think of this.

http://www.negativland.com/news/?page_id=17

The Problem With Music

by Steve Albini

Whenever I talk to a band who are about to sign with a major label, I always end up thinking of them in a particular context. I imagine a trench, about four feet wide and five feet deep, maybe sixty yards long, filled with runny, decaying shit. I imagine these people, some of them good friends, some of them barely acquaintances, at one end of this trench. I also imagine a faceless industry lackey at the other end holding a fountain pen and a contract waiting to be signed. Nobody can see what's printed on the contract. It's too far away, and besides, the shit stench is making everybody's eyes water. The lackey shouts to everybody that the first one to swim the trench gets to sign the contract. Everybody dives in the trench and they struggle furiously to get to the other end. Two people arrive simultaneously and begin wrestling furiously, clawing each other and dunking each other under the shit. Eventually, one of them capitulates, and there's only one contestant left. He reaches for the pen, but the Lackey says "Actually, I think you need a little more development. Swim again, please. Backstroke". And he does of course.


Every major label involved in the hunt for new bands now has on staff a high-profile point man, an "A & R" rep who can present a comfortable face to any prospective band. The initials stand for "Artist and Repertoire." because historically, the A & R staff would select artists to record music that they had also selected, out of an available pool of each. This is still the case, though not openly. These guys are universally young [about the same age as the bands being wooed], and nowadays they always have some obvious underground rock credibility flag they can wave.


Lyle Preslar, former guitarist for Minor Threat, is one of them. Terry Tolkin, former NY independent booking agent and assistant manager at Touch and Go is one of them. Al Smith, former soundman at CBGB is one of them. Mike Gitter, former editor of XXX fanzine and contributor to Rip, Kerrang and other lowbrow rags is one of them. Many of the annoying turds who used to staff college radio stations are in their ranks as well. There are several reasons A & R scouts are always young. The explanation usually copped-to is that the scout will be "hip to the current musical "scene." A more important reason is that the bands will intuitively trust someone they think is a peer, and who speaks fondly of the same formative rock and roll experiences. The A & R person is the first person to make contact with the band, and as such is the first person to promise them the moon. Who better to promise them the moon than an idealistic young turk who expects to be calling the shots in a few years, and who has had no previous experience with a big record company. Hell, he's as naive as the band he's duping. When he tells them no one will interfere in their creative process, he probably even believes it. When he sits down with the band for the first time, over a plate of angel hair pasta, he can tell them with all sincerity that when they sign with company X, they're really signing with him and he's on their side. Remember that great gig I saw you at in '85? Didn't we have a blast. By now all rock bands are wise enough to be suspicious of music industry scum. There is a pervasive caricature in popular culture of a portly, middle aged ex-hipster talking a mile-a-minute, using outdated jargon and calling everybody "baby." After meeting "their" A & R guy, the band will say to themselves and everyone else, "He's not like a record company guy at all! He's like one of us." And they will be right. That's one of the reasons he was hired.


These A & R guys are not allowed to write contracts. What they do is present the band with a letter of intent, or "deal memo," which loosely states some terms, and affirms that the band will sign with the label once a contract has been agreed on. The spookiest thing about this harmless sounding little memo, is that it is, for all legal purposes, a binding document. That is, once the band signs it, they are under obligation to conclude a deal with the label. If the label presents them with a contract that the band don't want to sign, all the label has to do is wait. There are a hundred other bands willing to sign the exact same contract, so the label is in a position of strength. These letters never have any terms of expiration, so the band remain bound by the deal memo until a contract is signed, no matter how long that takes. The band cannot sign to another laborer or even put out its own material unless they are released from their agreement, which never happens. Make no mistake about it: once a band has signed a letter of intent, they will either eventually sign a contract that suits the label or they will be destroyed.


One of my favorite bands was held hostage for the better part of two years by a slick young "He's not like a label guy at all," A & R rep, on the basis of such a deal memo. He had failed to come through on any of his promises [something he did with similar effect to another well-known band], and so the band wanted out. Another label expressed interest, but when the A & R man was asked to release the band, he said he would need money or points, or possibly both, before he would consider it. The new label was afraid the price would be too dear, and they said no thanks. On the cusp of making their signature album, an excellent band, humiliated, broke up from the stress and the many months of inactivity. There's this band. They're pretty ordinary, but they're also pretty good, so they've attracted some attention. They're signed to a moderate-sized "independent" label owned by a distribution company, and they have another two albums owed to the label. They're a little ambitious. They'd like to get signed by a major label so they can have some security you know, get some good equipment, tour in a proper tour bus — nothing fancy, just a little reward for all the hard work. To that end, they got a manager. He knows some of the label guys, and he can shop their next project to all the right people. He takes his cut, sure, but it's only 15%, and if he can get them signed then it's money well spent. Anyways, it doesn't cost them anything if it doesn't work. 15% of nothing isn't much! One day an A & R scout calls them, says he's 'been following them for a while now, and when their manager mentioned them to him, it just "clicked." Would they like to meet with him about the possibility of working out a deal with his label? Wow. Big Break time. They meet the guy, and y'know what — he's not what they expected from a label guy. He's young and dresses pretty much like the band does. He knows all their favorite bands. He's like one of them. He tells them he wants to go to bat for them, to try to get them everything they want. He says anything is possible with the right attitude.


They conclude the evening by taking home a copy of a deal memo they wrote out and signed on the spot. The A & R guy was full of great ideas, even talked about using a name producer. Butch Vig is out of the question-he wants 100 g's and three points, but they can get Don Fleming for $30,000 plus three points. Even that's a little steep, so maybe they'll go with that guy who used to be in David Letterman's band. He only wants three points. Or they can have just anybody record it (like Warton Tiers, maybe– cost you 5 or 7 grand] and have Andy Wallace remix it for 4 grand a track plus 2 points. It was a lot to think about. Well, they like this guy and they trust him. Besides, they already signed the deal memo. He must have been serious about wanting them to sign. They break the news to their current label, and the label manager says he wants them to succeed, so they have his blessing. He will need to be compensated, of course, for the remaining albums left on their contract, but he'll work it out with the label himself.


Sub Pop made millions from selling off Nirvana, and Twin Tone hasn't done bad either: 50 grand for the Babes and 60 grand for the Poster Children– without having to sell a single additional record. It'll be something modest. The new label doesn't mind, so long as it's recoupable out of royalties. Well, they get the final contract, and it's not quite what they expected. They figure it's better to be safe than sorry and they turn it over to a lawyer–one who says he's experienced in entertainment law and he hammers out a few bugs. They're still not sure about it, but the lawyer says he's seen a lot of contracts, and theirs is pretty good. They'll be great royalty: 13% [less a 1O% packaging deduction]. Wasn't it Buffalo Tom that were only getting 12% less 10? Whatever. The old label only wants 50 grand, an no points. Hell, Sub Pop got 3 points when they let Nirvana go. They're signed for four years, with options on each year, for a total of over a million dollars! That's a lot of money in any man's English. The first year's advance alone is $250,000. Just think about it, a quarter million, just for being in a rock band! Their manager thinks it's a great deal, especially the large advance. Besides, he knows a publishing company that will take the band on if they get signed, and even give them an advance of 20 grand, so they'll be making that money too. The manager says publishing is pretty mysterious, and nobody really knows where all the money comes from, but the lawyer can look that contract over too. Hell, it's free money. Their booking agent is excited about the band signing to a major. He says they can maybe average $1,000 or $2,000 a night from now on. That's enough to justify a five week tour, and with tour support, they can use a proper crew, buy some good equipment and even get a tour bus! Buses are pretty expensive, but if you figure in the price of a hotel room for everybody In the band and crew, they're actually about the same cost. Some bands like Therapy? and Sloan and Stereolab use buses on their tours even when they're getting paid only a couple hundred bucks a night, and this tour should earn at least a grand or two every night. It'll be worth it. The band will be more comfortable and will play better.


The agent says a band on a major label can get a merchandising company to pay them an advance on T-shirt sales! ridiculous! There's a gold mine here! The lawyer Should look over the merchandising contract, just to be safe. They get drunk at the signing party. Polaroids are taken and everybody looks thrilled. The label picked them up in a limo. They decided to go with the producer who used to be in Letterman's band. He had these technicians come in and tune the drums for them and tweak their amps and guitars. He had a guy bring in a slew of expensive old "vintage" microphones. Boy, were they "warm." He even had a guy come in and check the phase of all the equipment in the control room! Boy, was he professional. He used a bunch of equipment on them and by the end of it, they all agreed that it sounded very "punchy," yet "warm." All that hard work paid off. With the help of a video, the album went like hotcakes! They sold a quarter million copies! Here is the math that will explain just how fucked they are: These figures are representative of amounts that appear in record contracts daily. There's no need to skew the figures to make the scenario look bad, since real-life examples more than abound. income is bold and underlined, expenses are not.


Advance:    $ 250,000

Manager's cut:
   
$ 37,500

Legal fees:
   
$ 10,000

Recording Budget:
   
$ 150,000

Producer's advance:
   
$ 50,000

Studio fee:
   
$ 52,500
Drum Amp, Mic and Phase "Doctors":    
$ 3,000

Recording tape:
   
$ 8,000

Equipment rental:
   
$ 5,000

Cartage and Transportation:
   
$ 5,000

Lodgings while in studio:
   
$ 10,000

Catering:
   
$ 3,000

Mastering:
   
$ 10,000

Tape copies, reference CDs, shipping
tapes, misc. expenses:
   
$ 2,000

Video budget:
   
$ 30,000

Cameras:
   
$ 8,000

Crew:
   
$ 5,000

Processing and transfers:
   
$ 3,000

Off-line:
   
$ 2,000

On-line editing:
   
$ 3,000

Catering:
   
$ 1,000

Stage and construction:
   
$ 3,000

Copies, couriers, transportation:
   
$ 2,000

Director's fee:
   
$ 3,000

Album Artwork:
   
$ 5,000

Promotional photo shoot and duplication:
   
$ 2,000

Band fund:
   
$ 15,000

New fancy professional drum kit:
   
$ 5,000

New fancy professional guitars [2]:
   
$ 3,000

New fancy professional guitar amp rigs [2]:
   
$ 4,000

New fancy potato-shaped bass guitar:
   
$ 1,000

New fancy rack of lights bass amp:
   
$ 1,000

Rehearsal space rental:
   
$ 500

Big blowout party for their friends:
   
$ 500

Tour expense [5 weeks]:
   
$ 50,875

Bus:
   
$ 25,000

Crew [3]:
   
$ 7,500

Food and per diems:
   
$ 7,875

Fuel:
   
$ 3,000

Consumable supplies:
   
$ 3,500

Wardrobe:
   
$ 1,000

Promotion:
   
$ 3,000
Tour gross income:    $ 50,000

Agent's cut:
   
$ 7,500

Manager's cut:
   
$ 7,500
Merchandising advance:    $ 20,000

Manager's cut:
   
$ 3,000

Lawyer's fee:
   
$ 1,000
Publishing advance:    $ 20,000

Manager's cut:
   
$ 3,000

Lawyer's fee:
   
$ 1,000

Record sales:
   
250,000 @ $12 =

$3,000,000


Gross retail revenue Royalty:

[13% of 90% of retail]:

$ 351,000


Less advance:

$ 250,000

Producer's points:

[3% less $50,000 advance]:

$ 40,000


Promotional budget:

$ 25,000

Recoupable buyout from previous label:

$ 50,000


Net royalty: $ -14,000

Record company income:




Record wholesale price:

$6.50 x 250,000 =

$1,625,000 gross income


Artist Royalties:

$ 351,000

Deficit from royalties:

$ 14,000

Manufacturing, packaging and distribution:

@ $2.20 per record: $ 550,000

Gross profit:

$ 710,000

The Balance Sheet: This is how much each player got paid at the end of the game.




Record company:

$ 710,000

Producer:

$ 90,000

Manager:

$ 51,000

Studio:

$ 52,500

Previous label:

$ 50,000

Agent:

$ 7,500

Lawyer:

$ 12,000

Band member net income each:
$ 4,031.25





The band is now 1/4 of the way through its contract, has made the music industry more than 3 million dollars richer, but is in the hole $14,000 on royalties. The band members have each earned about 1/3 as much as they would working at a 7-11, but they got to ride in a tour bus for a month. The next album will be about the same, except that the record company will insist they spend more time and money on it. Since the previous one never "recouped," the band will have no leverage, and will oblige. The next tour will be about the same, except the merchandising advance will have already been paid, and the band, strangely enough, won't have earned any royalties from their T-shirts yet. Maybe the T-shirt guys have figured out how to count money like record company guys. Some of your friends are probably already this fucked.

Of course, I am also old and cynical, but I'd go with a tiny label run by a mate anyday.

[skydogdiesel]

i read the whole thing.  we know signing with a major label is retarded for the reasons outlined above.  we're looking to the smaller, established indie labels like a labelled above.   mostly for distro, exposure and tour oppurtunities. 
we all have day jobs, but we do plan to be around a while as a band and we do take the music we write pretty seriously.  we recorded a sweet sounding ep for under 500$ and are recording our lp at the same studio for 700$.  Granted he's a friend and is clearly giving us a break, but the quality is good.  we just want to take it to the next level.

[Hemisaurus]

Yeah, I know, I read you saying indie, I just have trust issues with pretty much everybody, though I did meet Daniel Miller a couple of times, though not to sign my band, and he seemed like a really cool guy.  

Good luck.

[justinhedrick]

The Poster Children are from champaign . . .

and yes, small and indie over huge any day of the week.

[liquidsmoke]

No. But I still have a few cents for you, cause why not.

Play out a lot, be awesome, tour when you can, make connections with bands you like who have fans that might like your stuff. Send your recordings to labels that put out stuff you like, whether they are tiny or medium to big "indie" labels. Don't expect anything.

That's all I got.

[mawso]

that albini article is a good read if you're one of the few who's never seen it before, but it gets peddled around the internet as the only thing you need to know about record deals

there are 2 main probs with it.. the first is that it was written in the early 90s about a world that doesn't exist anymore.  i mean who the hell is going from nowhere to walk into 150k recording budgets in 2012?

but the biggest problem with his breakdown at the end is that it assumes that getting such a big audience for your work is worth $0

to me that's silly.  having such wide exposure is worth a fortune - not just in the music business, it's a fact of commerce generally.  listeners are becoming fans of the band, not of the label.

honestly, if i had the chance for my band to sell 3 million bucks worth of albums to be left holding $4k in cash at the end, i'd consider that a huge step ahead.  the real sticking point is what obligations you're left with to the label at the end, and how long they'll be around for.

[AgentofOblivion]

I was talking with a guy that owns a small label.  When the topic of distribution came up he said the first question asked is "how much do they tour?"  Bands that rarely or never go outside of their 100 mi bubble will likely never take that next step.  You mentioned all of you have day jobs.  Unless you're all willing to quit them to achieve and exploit that next step then you should probably just learn to enjoy the level you're at.

Although I'm not signed to one of those labels, I think the answer is really as simple as:  you make it economically beneficial to them.  Are you guys profiting currently?  If not, how do you plan to make them money?  Demonstrate that you have a large fan base and the rest should fall into place; that's the hard part.

[clockwork green]

None of those things that you want to do still require a label. Pre-internet you couldn't get your music all across the country.  You couldn't just walk up to Tower with a bunch of self-pressed cd's and expect them to take them and especially not nationally.  With bandcamp and itunes you now get a nice chunk of the money from each download and your record is global instantly.  As for breaking into new markets...you've got to tour or hope you become an internet sensation.  I've known guys that have played their first shows in a new band on the road...obviously nobody knew who they were at the time since they didn't even exist before these shows.  Play a city you want to break into 3 or 4 times in rapid succession and hope you can get some sympathetic ears.  These people didn't have tons of connections in those other cities, they just made a few phone calls and then talked to the bands they played with to try and get more shows.  Unless you really need an advanced to record in Abbey Road and want a big name director to make your first video a label is rarely going to do anything for you. 

[Mr. Foxen]

Big corpse or small corpse, either way, tying yourself to a dying thing is not a good plan. Everything a label can do can be achieved by putting some effort in. If you can't be bothered to put the effort in to your music, why would you expect a label to take up your slack? If a label is genuinely interested in spreading your music for the sake of it being good music, they don't need to sign you and tie you to a contract, you just licence the music to them to press and distribute, and have no obligations to them.

[eyeprod]

I've got some friends on holy mountain. I think they got connects through word of mouth, a friend of a friend, and got on a decent bill down in the city for some minor festival and not long after that they got a deal. They seem to do great distro for the band, as their disc is on best buy, walmart, and cool record stores in the uk and all, which is pretty broad and evidently wider than the average band could do on their own. I think their gigs are mainly lined up via other bands they know and not so much the label. Looks like I might try out playing synth with them again (I did so a few years ago, pre-label), so maybe I'll know more.

[AgentofOblivion]

I don't buy the "labels can't do anything you can't," stuff.  That's true in principle, but they have tremendous resources in place that you would have to build from scratch.  Most importantly, they have established connections that would take years to build.  That's never going away, internet or not.  What are the chances that you personally are going to build up the reputation and following big enough to, say, tour with Orange Goblin without any help from labels?  If that is the case, where are all the examples of these bands that are doing this sort of thing?  I'm sure there are some, but most non-local bands I ever hear are involved with a label of some kind.  There's too much work involved with booking national tours and shit when starting from scratch for a few guys with day jobs. 

[rayinreverse]

I don't buy the "labels can't do anything you can't," stuff.  That's true in principle, but they have tremendous resources in place that you would have to build from scratch.  Most importantly, they have established connections that would take years to build.  That's never going away, internet or not.  What are the chances that you personally are going to build up the reputation and following big enough to, say, tour with Orange Goblin without any help from labels?  If that is the case, where are all the examples of these bands that are doing this sort of thing?  I'm sure there are some, but most non-local bands I ever hear are involved with a label of some kind.  There's too much work involved with booking national tours and shit when starting from scratch for a few guys with day jobs. 

This is kind of a double edged sword. Bands that work hard and do their own thing, and make a name for themselves on their own, usually get a phone call from a label. Its not the other way around.

There are a lot of people that will buy something from Small Stone, just because its on SS. Same for a number of labels.

Labels dont book tours. Booking agents do. Booking agents wont generally work with you unless you can get a draw in a number of towns across the country. Generally you cant do this without a label, or some sort of name for yourself.

Booking a tour just takes time. It wont always be awesome, but you have to keep doing it. Its the same thing as booking shows in your home town. Youre probably not going to have an awesome first show. Same way as youre probably not going to have an awesome first tour. But if your band is good, and you go back to that town again, you'll start to notice some change.

You can look at a band like Red Fang. They released a record on a tiny label which was really just a label putting their name on it. They then made an awesome video that blew up. They also toured the shit out of the country on their own. When it came time to release another record they had choices when it came to going to a label. But they toured their asses off! They also dont suck.

[Cursed71]

Not to mention the cred that can come from being on a label. You could be the raddest band on the planet but if you only have a bandcamp page Decibel or some other magazine wont really give you legit coverage (if you care about that shit).  Plus if a touring band is coming through my town I know "Profound Lore" on the flyer doesnt hurt turnout.  Just sayin.  Maybe the Decibel thing is unimportant, but I dont see too many cats,even on this board, reviewing or hyping unsigned bands.  With that said, most contracts kinda suck.

[Cursed71]

Actually I take that back.  I can't stand reviews anyhow.  The Red Fang model is the best.  Tour and kill it and if you wanna be on a label they will find you.

[clockwork green]

True, you're not likely to play Madison Square without a major but you can easily play the bigges places that any stoner/doom band around if you have the audience and the labels won't/can't build that for you. You may get a small boost by signing to Southern Lord but people aren't label loyalists like they used to be. Everything that label does for you comes at a cost both financial and in control. Is that cost worth it to you? That's a different answer for each person. I wouldn't count SST as a real label at the time of Black Flag since it was just Greg but 30's year later despite the monopoly major labels had back then Black Flag is still well known. Neurosis does fine without a label and touring...true it helped to have label support to establish their name but that was years ago. Large clubs won't book you without an audience, labels of any resources (as meager as they are today) without an audience. They're making an investment and that has nothing to do with songs. Man's Ruin was a label ran solely for the sake of good music and it bankrupted Kozik. You can book your own small tours, draw an audience, create an Internet presence on your own and release your own videos on YouTube for nearly nothing today and you can record a great sounding record for nearly nothing as well. A label might get you some opening slot playing for a decent band or a shitty band and you'll be playing in front of a few dozen people while everyone is still in line or outside smoking. You might also get a label that chooses the art work and track order for you, books you with lame bands and even sits on your record without releasing it. You may wish to hold out for a label that cares more about integrity and art more than money but they are few, far between and short-lived. Faustian deals are out there and some may survive the cost but its just not necessary anymore.

[rayinreverse]

But the fact that you can record, release, and put videos out easier than ever also means there is a whole bunch of terrible shit out there.
I usually give a band a little more credit if a label has put steaks behind them.

Take a band like Dwellers. None of you would have heard of them, if Small Stone hadnt put their record out. And they are a GREAT band!

[clockwork green]

I still haven't heard of them or then again maybe I have but forgot them because they didn't interest me. I will give them a listen later though but that's based on your recommendation not because of label promotion. I buy dozens of records each month and rarely do I know what label they're on. I also buy tons of stuff on bandcamp from bands with and without labels. In fact, many labels are the kiss of death for bands to me. Victory was cool like 20 years ago but is now just the worst crap ever, relapse is synonymous with generic death and grind to me. There's tons of shit records on labels too.

[Hemisaurus]

I think, and this'll sound strange coming from a misanthrope like me, but what you guys need isn't a label but a manager. Not the take 20% off the top kind of manager, but the kind who is interested in the band, will punt them to promoters, labels, other managers etc.

You want someone to get you more gigs and better gigs, and more exposure, that's not what a label does, they sell their product, not the band, their product, and they will always have their own interests before yours, the manager won't care what label owns the other bands on the bill, if they're a big name, they want you on there.

Plus, you know what a PITA it is trying to book your own tours, I'd gladly give the 20% of bog-all that we make to save myself that hassle. Don't fall in love with your manager though, there may come a time you have to get another one, if you move to a different level, or if your manager start deteriorating due to rock n roll excesses

[skydogdiesel]

Bands that rarely or never go outside of their 100 mi bubble will likely never take that next step.  You mentioned all of you have day jobs.  Unless you're all willing to quit them to achieve and exploit that next step then you should probably just learn to enjoy the level you're at.

Look at bands like Blood ceremony, Sons of Otis, Electric Magma- all three of those bands have achieved exactly the kind of success we're looking for and i know for a fact because these bands are from my hometown and i've talked to members in all of them that they never toured hard before they got signed lol.  If anything they only toured BECAUSE they got signed to an indie label.  times have changed and the industry has changed-you dont even have to be a musician to see this.   
i never said we're "unwilling to tour"- i meant that we dont need to make a living from playing music because we make a decent living from our jobs (i'm a licensed carpenter and the drummer is a truck driver-the bass player is another story altogether).  if anything these are the perfect day jobs that would allow us to tour almost whenever we want. 
i think you misunderstood where i was coming from-such is the interweb.

[Lumpy]

Actually I take that back.  I can't stand reviews anyhow.  The Red Fang model is the best.  Tour and kill it and if you wanna be on a label they will find you.

Rick Rubin said (when talking about how to get signed nowadays) "I don't want to hear your band... I want to hear about your band".

[skydogdiesel]

ok- i see how my previous post might come off as us being "lazy"-but we're not.  we're just at a point where we see a flaw in the current model of what it takes get exposure and we want to explore our options.  we've all been in touring bands before and know the pro's and con's of that.  

i really am taking all the responses in and hearing a lot of valid opinions.  and a few bad ones too haha

[rayinreverse]

Are you good enough to get signed?

[skydogdiesel]

no we're terrible.  we dont actually play instruments, we just fart into microphones.

[skydogdiesel]

http://www.reverbnation.com/galaxiesintheriver