For Two Piece Bands: Tune Down and Octave UP or Tune Up and Octave Down?

spookstrickland · July 30, 2011, 11:31:04 PM

I thought it might be interesting to look into the pro's and cons of getting deep low bass and still sounding like a guitar in a two piece.

I see a lot of people using Octave Down Pedals but what about tuning down and using an octave Up pedal in a split rig system?

What would truly give the most realistic effect?

VOLVO))) · July 30, 2011, 11:38:07 PM

Stereo Rig.

Bass Amp + Octave down>>>>ABY<<<<<guitar amp + your effects

Discö Rice · July 31, 2011, 02:40:43 AM

I'm in two two-piece bands, both of which are drums and bass, I believe one tunes to C and the other tunes to B. One is just a big bass rig, the other is bass through both a bass amp and a guitar amp. If Lumpy (who has the latter setup) feels like divulging his secrets I'll leave it to him, but I will say there is some serious gear wizardry going on there.

spookstrickland · July 31, 2011, 08:53:21 PM

Quote from: Discö Rice on July 31, 2011, 02:40:43 AM
I'm in two two-piece bands, both of which are drums and bass, I believe one tunes to C and the other tunes to B. One is just a big bass rig, the other is bass through both a bass amp and a guitar amp. If Lumpy (who has the latter setup) feels like divulging his secrets I'll leave it to him, but I will say there is some serious gear wizardry going on there.

I'd like to hear that as well.

liquidsmoke · August 03, 2011, 02:43:54 AM

I play guitar in a 2 piece and tune down to A with a 7 string set minus the high E string and I replaced the low B string for one a bit thicker. I use a Radial Big Shot AB-Y splitter box. The A signal goes through my wah(which I only use on one song so far) > Laney GH50 with both gain knobs all the way up and eq'd for a somewhat dark high gain metal tone. The B signal goes into a Bobble Distortion('70s Big Muff style guitar pedal clone) > Tech 21 SansAmp Bass Driver > 80 watt solid state 15" Fender bass combo amp for a very thick somewhat sludgy/stoner metal tone. Each path has an ISP Decimator which cuts out most of the unwanted noise.

I can dial in as much low end as I want between the SansAmp and Fender so combined with the Laney the sound is at least in my opinion, very very heavy.

The only real issue I'm having is that the cab for the Laney is a 2x12" and the speakers distort a lot more than I would like them to even at around 2, at 6 or 7 it's so bad that it sounds like one of those uber fuzz pedals which is not what I'm going for. I just tonight hooked up my Laney to my bandmate's 15" bass cab. I can't crank it because my roommate is sleeping but even at a low volume it was sounding pretty massive but still like I was playing through a guitar amp, just super dark. Tomorrow I'm going to crank it up and see what happens. I suspect it's going to be massive.

Over a year ago I looked into getting an octave down pedal but reviewers were saying they tend to sound kind of synthy which is not the type of sound I want at all. The thing is, when you tune down super low and use fairly thick strings into a bass amp you've got more than enough low end on tap, you really don't need to be an octave down. If I was going to try the regular plus octave up deal like you mentioned I think I would get a baritone guitar and tune it a full octave down in E. My wrist probably wouldn't like it but the non-octave up power chords through a bass amp or at least bass speakers would be beyond massive sounding, like the second coming of Winter. I have zero experience with octave up pedals so I have no idea what the standard E would sound like.

spookstrickland · August 03, 2011, 03:48:37 AM

Quote from: liquidsmoke on August 03, 2011, 02:43:54 AM
I play guitar in a 2 piece and tune down to A with a 7 string set minus the high E string and I replaced the low B string for one a bit thicker. I use a Radial Big Shot AB-Y splitter box. The A signal goes through my wah(which I only use on one song so far) > Laney GH50 with both gain knobs all the way up and eq'd for a somewhat dark high gain metal tone. The B signal goes into a Bobble Distortion('70s Big Muff style guitar pedal clone) > Tech 21 SansAmp Bass Driver > 80 watt solid state 15" Fender bass combo amp for a very thick somewhat sludgy/stoner metal tone. Each path has an ISP Decimator which cuts out most of the unwanted noise.

I can dial in as much low end as I want between the SansAmp and Fender so combined with the Laney the sound is at least in my opinion, very very heavy.

The only real issue I'm having is that the cab for the Laney is a 2x12" and the speakers distort a lot more than I would like them to even at around 2, at 6 or 7 it's so bad that it sounds like one of those uber fuzz pedals which is not what I'm going for. I just tonight hooked up my Laney to my bandmate's 15" bass cab. I can't crank it because my roommate is sleeping but even at a low volume it was sounding pretty massive but still like I was playing through a guitar amp, just super dark. Tomorrow I'm going to crank it up and see what happens. I suspect it's going to be massive.

Over a year ago I looked into getting an octave down pedal but reviewers were saying they tend to sound kind of synthy which is not the type of sound I want at all. The thing is, when you tune down super low and use fairly thick strings into a bass amp you've got more than enough low end on tap, you really don't need to be an octave down. If I was going to try the regular plus octave up deal like you mentioned I think I would get a baritone guitar and tune it a full octave down in E. My wrist probably wouldn't like it but the non-octave up power chords through a bass amp or at least bass speakers would be beyond massive sounding, like the second coming of Winter. I have zero experience with octave up pedals so I have no idea what the standard E would sound like.

That's a nice rig. The other thing I'm always trying to figure out is how to make both rigs sound like they are played by different people. I wish they made some kind of a automatic double tracker in a box or something that you would plug into and it would sound like two people. Chorus pedals just don't do it for me. I've been messing with delay and I really wish I could get a delay that had a setting to slightly speed up and slow down the delay time then send the wet signal only to the B stack but I'm sure that would take lots of work to build a pedal like that.

One kool thing that I have done is to run my delay before my phase so the repeats are slightly different that really adds some depth.

Lumpy · August 03, 2011, 04:00:37 AM

Quote from: liquidsmoke on August 03, 2011, 02:43:54 AM
Over a year ago I looked into getting an octave down pedal but reviewers were saying they tend to sound kind of synthy which is not the type of sound I want at all. The thing is, when you tune down super low and use fairly thick strings into a bass amp you've got more than enough low end on tap, you really don't need to be an octave down.

If you want more low end, you could try the Electro Harmonix Mole which is a bass EQ specific boost, or the Boss OC-2 (or OC-3, either one) which lets you dial in the lower octaves to taste. It doesn't have to be the whole octave full-on, you can just add in a little taste (blend).

I play bass so I split my signal, one side goes through a bass fuzz and bass amp, and the other side goes into a guitar fuzz and guitar amp. I emphasize the mids on the guitar side* (Tone is in the fingers, though.) This is totally unrelated to the "Kicking Your Friend Out of the Band" thread -- that's an "experimental noise" band. (I'm working on more than one imaginary band.)

*(I need a new 4x12 cab, my Peavey cab is slightly scooped and the highs are a little harsh - recommend a good 4x12 that is mid-heavy)

I think the answer to the question depends on what instrument you play. If you play guitar you probably use an octave down/bass boost, and if you play bass you maybe use a mid boost/bass cut/octave up. Or just go with your basic guitar or bass sound. <----- Loads of bands do that. It's not necessary to do anything at all.

Lumpy · August 03, 2011, 04:07:25 AM

Quote from: spookstrickland on August 03, 2011, 03:48:37 AMChorus pedals just don't do it for me.

Try putting the Chorus on real slow, and not real deep (just on one side). Don't use it like you would use a chorus for an effect (like the Cure or whatever). If you make it barely noticeable, it should do what you want (separation). It just adds a little depth and doesn't color your sound too much, if you keep the speed and depth turned down. If it sounds like 80s metal, turn it down some more. What kind of chorus are you using?

Also, try using two different fuzzes for the different amps. Maybe EQ the amps a little different. Maybe make one side less fuzzy, and one side more fuzzy (or distortion, whatever you use). You have to spend time experimenting.

liquidsmoke · August 03, 2011, 05:23:05 AM

Quote from: Lumpy on August 03, 2011, 04:00:37 AMIf you want more low end, you could try the Electro Harmonix Mole which is a bass EQ specific boost, or the Boss OC-2 (or OC-3, either one) which lets you dial in the lower octaves to taste. It doesn't have to be the whole octave full-on, you can just add in a little taste (blend).

I don't need more low end exactly but some lower octave sounds could be nice for extra thunder as long as my bass combo could handle it, do bass speakers ever blow from too much low end? I'll look into those pedals, thanks.

Lumpy · August 03, 2011, 06:30:00 AM

Quote from: liquidsmoke on August 03, 2011, 05:23:05 AM
Quote from: Lumpy on August 03, 2011, 04:00:37 AMdo bass speakers ever blow from too much low end?

Yes. Be careful... if it sounds funny, stop right away.

liquidsmoke · August 03, 2011, 12:16:57 PM

Quote from: Lumpy on August 03, 2011, 06:30:00 AM
Quote from: liquidsmoke on August 03, 2011, 05:23:05 AM
Quote from: Lumpy on August 03, 2011, 04:00:37 AMdo bass speakers ever blow from too much low end?

Yes. Be careful... if it sounds funny, stop right away.

Hmmm... maybe I should just forget about an octave down pedal then.

Lumpy · August 03, 2011, 01:44:36 PM

Maybe save the octave pedal for when you have a more burly speaker cab. Or try a Mole (bass booster). You said it already sounds as bassy as you want... maybe don't try to solve a prob. you don't really have.

spookstrickland · August 03, 2011, 04:47:08 PM

Quote from: Lumpy on August 03, 2011, 04:07:25 AM
Quote from: spookstrickland on August 03, 2011, 03:48:37 AMChorus pedals just don't do it for me.

Try putting the Chorus on real slow, and not real deep (just on one side). Don't use it like you would use a chorus for an effect (like the Cure or whatever). If you make it barely noticeable, it should do what you want (separation). It just adds a little depth and doesn't color your sound too much, if you keep the speed and depth turned down. If it sounds like 80s metal, turn it down some more. What kind of chorus are you using?

Also, try using two different fuzzes for the different amps. Maybe EQ the amps a little different. Maybe make one side less fuzzy, and one side more fuzzy (or distortion, whatever you use). You have to spend time experimenting.

I'll give that a try. It's a Boss CE 2.

Thanks

Lumpy · August 03, 2011, 07:24:05 PM

I use a Boss chorus too. I think my speed is 11 oclock and my depth is noon... you could even try using less than that.

spookstrickland · August 04, 2011, 03:51:04 AM

Quote from: Lumpy on August 03, 2011, 07:24:05 PM
I use a Boss chorus too. I think my speed is 11 oclock and my depth is noon... you could even try using less than that.

I think I'll dig it out and play with it again. I'm getting the urge to try my hand at some over the top space rock so I'm going to start digging out all my old pedals.

Lumpy · August 04, 2011, 03:55:48 AM

Try to focus...

Hemisaurus · August 04, 2011, 09:44:45 AM

Quote from: spookstrickland on July 30, 2011, 11:31:04 PM
What would truly give the most realistic effect?

To answer that one specific question, octave down, octave up has to fill in the gap for double the frequency, it's always going to sound a bit off, though an octave up fuzz circuit sounds good, so to clarify.

Plain clean sound - octave down will always have the edge, it's easier to lose than gain frequency.
Fuzz sound - octave up fuzz (like the Bazz Fuss Buzz Box) may sound good it sort of just emphasises the harmonic rather than creating a whole new sound.

Derelict78 · August 18, 2011, 01:34:09 PM

If you want more low end play a bass and run it through a bass amp and guitar amp

RacerX · August 18, 2011, 01:42:48 PM

We're doing our first show as a 2-piece after our bassist quit. I'm basically running my guitar through 2 guitar amps and 1 bass amp.

Jon bought an Octabass pedal, so I'm splitting my clean signal off at the tuner & sending it through the Octabass & into the Acoustic 220 rig. The other half of the signal goes through my pedalboard, splits again and feeds into the Mesa 50/50. Each side of that goes into one of my 2 guitar cabs.

Sounds pretty thick. The tracking on the Octabass is not flawless, but I'm learning my way around that.

Derelict78 · August 18, 2011, 01:58:30 PM

do you have any sound clips I would like to hear that.

RacerX · August 18, 2011, 02:10:35 PM

Not yet.

I think we finally blew up our Zoom recorder. Outboard or onboard mic, makes no difference—sounds like the inside of a cement mixer.

Lumpy · August 18, 2011, 05:27:58 PM

Zoom H2: Make sure you have the sensitivity slider all the way down, keep the bit rate high (recording settings - 24hz basically means more 'overhead') to help avoid clipping, and of course the volume input (set when you're in Standby mode). If you're louder than shit, maybe 60 or even 50. You probably know that though.

Or maybe you dropped it too many times

justJon · August 18, 2011, 06:20:30 PM

"Or maybe you dropped it too many times."

Yeah, I just double-checked all the settings, and that's essentially where we are. It worked great a couple of months ago, but now, internal mics, external mics, whatever, just makes noisy, noisy, unlistenable (even to my ears) recordings.

We got a good couple of years out of it, but I use electronics like I use drums. I'm very hard on them.

fallen · August 18, 2011, 07:10:33 PM

Years ago I saw one of those DBX Subharmonic Synthesizer 1U rack units in the PA section of a shop and always wanted to try putting one of those together with a power amp to power an extra cab from a slave output on a guitar amp.

It's supposed to be able to grab a signal and process a new octave down tone based on the base note of the signal. I've never tried it personally but it should be possible to rent one from somewhere. They use them sometimes in big DJ rigs.

VOLVO))) · August 18, 2011, 11:56:58 PM

Quote from: fallen on August 18, 2011, 07:10:33 PM
Years ago I saw one of those DBX Subharmonic Synthesizer 1U rack units in the PA section of a shop and always wanted to try putting one of those together with a power amp to power an extra cab from a slave output on a guitar amp.

It's supposed to be able to grab a signal and process a new octave down tone based on the base note of the signal. I've never tried it personally but it should be possible to rent one from somewhere. They use them sometimes in big DJ rigs.

Lightning Bolt use one.