The Drum Machine/Groovebox Thread

LogicalFrank · April 28, 2011, 10:20:23 AM

Probably not too popular a thread around here but what the hell... What's everyone using for their automachined drumming these days?

I and hence Sun Splitter used a Boss DR-5 (well, two Boss DR-5s, thanks to 1990s amounts of memory) and they sound good and punchy but kind of retarded. Song mode on them is awesome though and it works well enough. I recently switched us to a Korg Electribe EMX and it rules, much more fun to jam on, which moves programming patterns along quite nicely but it sucks to sequence songs. It is meant for rave DJs or some shit so the presets are unintentionally hilarious but I use it to make a bastard ton of noise. I also just picked up a Roland MC-808 (For $175!) which is ridiculously powerful and complicated but the patches sound fantastic so far even though I haven't figured out the first thing of how to use it. Plus it has a built in theramin and the faders are motorized. (How useless!) My other new toy is a Yamaha QY-10.

Does anyone actually use the preset loops on their drum machines? I have never known why they put more than one or two on there for demonstration purposes. I understand lots of preset patches but who wants to use a drum part someone else programmed?

inductorguitars · April 28, 2011, 11:06:27 AM

My band's first incarnation used an Alesis HR16 12bit Drum machine that I programmed. I still have it.
I've played with other drum machines, but I'll never go back to hardware drum machines. For me it way easier to program software based ones. Currently I use Reason, which I can fuck with the sound and effects mainly distortion. I then import the loops to protools for fine tuning and mixing.

Depending on what I'm doing I'll either use the step based ReDrum (murder!) or the sampler and record a midi track or a mix of the two.

LogicalFrank · April 28, 2011, 11:51:13 AM

I have kind of wanted to get an SR-16 or an HR-16 for a while... I think Godflesh used either or both in the early days. Think they started w/ the HR and move the SR. I don't think I'd end up using either much. The newer SR-18 looks cool though but I have too much crap to learn as it is.

I like using the machines as opposed to software. Software makes it too easy to see and keep track of everything going on. W/ hardware, the UI is so limited it forces you to store all that sonical information in in your braindome which is really where it belongs. Plus I look at a computer screen all fucking day so it's the last thing I want to see when I'm making music. Apparently to get everything you can out of my MC 808, you need to interface it w/ a PC so we'll see how that goes....

Hemisaurus · April 28, 2011, 04:19:57 PM

I still don't get why Alesis didn't make a decent software package when they released the SR-18. I'm with Erik, I hate trying to program drum machines, Step Write or Tap Write both PITA, but I'm also with Frank that it's good to get away from the computer.

Is there any machine that allows you to write the patterns on a PC, and then download them into the box and forget about it?

Rather than writing on the drum machine, or carrying about a laptop to run a sequencer

For my sins, I have a DR-220 and a SR-16, I use 'em both, sometimes I use the preset patterns, usually slowed way down, or sped way up and fed through a mess of FX.

Blueberry Lazer · April 28, 2011, 04:20:52 PM

I bought a boss/roland dr5 about a year an a half ago, thinking it would be the solution to my lack of a drummer problem. It just sits here collecting dust. I never even learned to program the damn thing. Normally I say it's because i'm too busy but really it's because I've been extremely lazy about it. I even bought some dvds off of ebay but can't make it through the first 15 minutes without being bored to death. Whata douche

spookstrickland · April 28, 2011, 05:31:10 PM

I'm really thinking hard and taking the plunge and buying a good drum machine and doing a one man space rock kind of thing.

What would you say is the most simple "idiot proof" drum machine out there that will still get the job done?

LogicalFrank · April 28, 2011, 05:47:43 PM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on April 28, 2011, 04:19:57 PM
Is there any machine that allows you to write the patterns on a PC, and then download them into the box and forget about it?

I have a program called DR-5 Edit for my DR-5 that lets me do that. It is far from a perfect solution though. You can't loop the sounds when you program patterns so you play it, make changes, play it, make changes... And it connects via Midi so you need to have the DR-5 plugged into it to use it. I mostly use it to backup my machines when all is said and done. I don't know much about midi but I think there is generally ways to move pattern/song data between sequencers (one of which could be your computer) but I am clueless as far as that goes.

The one thing I have been hearing that is very well integrated between software and hardware is the Native Instruments Mashine but I have not used it. That is sort of like an MPC style sampler/drum machine which is not something I know much about.

LogicalFrank · April 28, 2011, 06:00:22 PM

Quote from: spookstrickland on April 28, 2011, 05:31:10 PM
I'm really thinking hard and taking the plunge and buying a good drum machine and doing a one man space rock kind of thing.

What would you say is the most simple "idiot proof" drum machine out there that will still get the job done?

Most of the Boss units are about equally difficult. I think the easiest from what I've tried is my DR-5 but the 550, 660, 880 have more realistic sounds. The coolest thing about the DR-5 is that the notes on the pads when you use the synth sounds are arranged like the notes on the neck of a guitar. Saves me a ton of time figuring shit out vs. a keyboard-like layout. The Boss and Alesis units seem to be most geared towards rock music for what it's worth.

It is a little easier than that to program stuff w/ what's called a TR-style interface like basically anything by Roland (it is named after the TR-x0x series by Roland) or the Korg Electribes. It is basically like a hardware version of Fruity Loops if you've ever tried that out. There are sixteen pads on it which each represent a sixteenth note and you just light up the ones you want the drum to sound on. Nice and visual.

Honestly, I don't think there ever has been an idiot proof drum machine though, at least as far as hardware.

inductorguitars · April 28, 2011, 07:14:26 PM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on April 28, 2011, 04:19:57 PM
Is there any machine that allows you to write the patterns on a PC, and then download them into the box and forget about it?

Rather than writing on the drum machine, or carrying about a laptop to run a sequencer

There's the Akai MPC's... But for that kind of dosh I'd get a sampler and/or keyboard.

EddieMullet · April 28, 2011, 07:55:00 PM

I have a Sequential Circuits Drumtraks. It's a fun machine to play with and you can tune the drums which is a neat thing to play with.

It is not easy to program but once you get the hang of it its not too bad.

dogfood · April 29, 2011, 12:04:33 AM

spook, for the love of god, go the software route. these people and their self hatred, buying drum machines. isn't it enough work trying to play a feck'n guitar?! you can have a laptop into an amp for live software drums. one day I may have to go that route.

spookstrickland · April 29, 2011, 02:52:47 AM

Quote from: LogicalFrank on April 28, 2011, 06:00:22 PM
Quote from: spookstrickland on April 28, 2011, 05:31:10 PM
I'm really thinking hard and taking the plunge and buying a good drum machine and doing a one man space rock kind of thing.

What would you say is the most simple "idiot proof" drum machine out there that will still get the job done?

Most of the Boss units are about equally difficult. I think the easiest from what I've tried is my DR-5 but the 550, 660, 880 have more realistic sounds. The coolest thing about the DR-5 is that the notes on the pads when you use the synth sounds are arranged like the notes on the neck of a guitar. Saves me a ton of time figuring shit out vs. a keyboard-like layout. The Boss and Alesis units seem to be most geared towards rock music for what it's worth.

It is a little easier than that to program stuff w/ what's called a TR-style interface like basically anything by Roland (it is named after the TR-x0x series by Roland) or the Korg Electribes. It is basically like a hardware version of Fruity Loops if you've ever tried that out. There are sixteen pads on it which each represent a sixteenth note and you just light up the ones you want the drum to sound on. Nice and visual.

Honestly, I don't think there ever has been an idiot proof drum machine though, at least as far as hardware.

Thanks, I need to go to the local music store and start checking them out. I have not even looked at drum machine in about 10 years. I'm hoping they are easier now.

Quote from: dogfood on April 29, 2011, 12:04:33 AM
spook, for the love of god, go the software route. these people and their self hatred, buying drum machines. isn't it enough work trying to play a feck'n guitar?! you can have a laptop into an amp for live software drums. one day I may have to go that route.

Thanks but I just want to keep it super simple, as soon as a lap top is involved in anything simple goes out the door. At least for me anyway

Lumpy · April 29, 2011, 04:26:02 AM

Nothing could be simpler than drum loops that you play back using a laptop. There are lots of pre-programmed loops out there. Check out EZ Drummer and Drumkit From Hell. Start with a premade loop and tweak it (remove beats, add beats, bring different beats together for chorus/verse etc). Drum machine is making a loop from scratch... I think that's harder.

The drum machine only does one thing... but your laptop can surf the web, design your flyers, record your guitar ideas, etc. It does a lot more. It's more expensive to get started with a laptop though.

LogicalFrank · April 29, 2011, 10:04:32 AM

There are really not that many drum machines that only do drums anymore. I think the only one you can buy new these days that is just a drum machine is the Alesis SR-16. Most things have at least the ability to do basslines built in and typically a lot more. That said, if you are going to use a drum machine, you have to use it because you have a specific desire to use it. Software or hardware, if you treat it like some stop gap measure because you can't do what you really want, it is only going to frustrate you.

dogfood · April 29, 2011, 08:11:33 PM

Spook, not true. I could, honestly, have you arranging your drums in one hour. And, 45 minutes of that would be downloading the $30 software. So easy, a drummer could do it.

VOLVO))) · April 29, 2011, 10:06:06 PM

30$ software?

... you old guys and your aversion to piracy.

Worthless Willie · April 29, 2011, 10:24:29 PM

"So easy, a drummer could do it."

Heheh.

Lumpy · April 30, 2011, 01:09:59 AM

Quote from: Worthless Willie on April 29, 2011, 10:24:29 PM
"So easy, a drummer could do it."

Heheh.

I think that's really the big issue with programming beats from scratch on a drum machine... if you don't already have a knack for creating rhythms, then your beats will be kinda lame, and programming will be slow and painful. The best person to program a drum machine is probably a drummer.

eyeprod · April 30, 2011, 10:29:21 AM

it's true ^^. Of course, you have to learn the machine, but if you don;t know shit about drumming and/or rhythm your programs will be lacking. So you always end up learning something about drumming along the way. I always used reason. It's easy to get something going. I'd create basic 4/4 templates that were just kick, snare and hihats. Then copy that and move stuff around to come up with new beats. The only thing it couldn;t do were time changes. I would use it for demos only, but if you have a laptop it's possible to use it live. I actually own reason, but I misplaced my original discs so haven't been using it. I just bought some real drums. Two mics and I'm good for most of what I want to do, it sounds better then a machine, and I'm picking up a skill as I force myself to learn it.

LogicalFrank · May 02, 2011, 09:57:37 AM

Playing actual drums is more fun than programming the machines but both are skills I'm glad that I have.

Hemisaurus · May 02, 2011, 10:47:14 AM

Quote from: LogicalFrank on May 02, 2011, 09:57:37 AM
Playing actual drums is more fun than programming the machines but both are skills I'm glad that I have.

How about doing a drum machine programming HOWTO for us dummies?

LogicalFrank · May 02, 2011, 11:12:56 AM

I suppose I could though I'm not sure how I'd go about w/o a video camera. Put the snare on the upbeat and hope it doesn't sound like crap.

Hemisaurus · May 02, 2011, 12:46:09 PM

OK you already got too technical

Upbeat is that the 2 or the 3? What happens when I have 16 dots?

LogicalFrank · May 02, 2011, 01:46:14 PM

Sixteen dots is way too many for rock and roll. It will lose its "feel" and end up sounding like "jazz music" so be careful about that unless you are in Emerson Lake and Palmer or something.

eyeprod · May 02, 2011, 09:49:18 PM

First , it helps to know how to properly count time. Then, it helps to understand the kind of drum beat you wish to create. Start simple.

Rock in 4/4 is easy...
Imagine a horizontal grid with 4 spaces. |1|2|3|4|, reads: one, two, three, four
- The kick always hits on the 1 and 3
- The snare hits on the 2 and 4
- Those are the important counts
- You can add hi-hat hits, like so: |1|and|2|and|3|and|4|, but it's still kick on the 1 & 3, and snare on the 2 & 4. Reads: one, and two, and three, etc
- Add a second hit like so: |1|and-a|2|and-a|3|and-a|4|, but then it's not rock anymore. Sort of a swing beat. Reads: one, and a two, and a three, etc
- Add 3 in between hits and it's counted like this: |1|e-and-a|2|e-and-a|3|e-and-a|4|, which makes it seem faster, but in programming drums the tempo is ideally counted by the kick and snare, while the hi-hats should have nothing to do with tempo. In reality, you can program shit all kinds of ways but if you stick to a common standard then your work will be easier in the long run. That, and you'll come to better understand counting time.

A long time ago I tried to program dub reggae beats, but could never get it right. Then I eventually learned that reggae drums count different than rock. They put the snare on the 3. In all kinds of music, the drum beat is crucial to defining the style or genre. If you're making electronic dance music, you learn this shit out of necessity, if you don't already know it. I'm sure dj's know about the specifics of each sub-genres beat. I know a few. Most of em hit big on the 1, and pretty much always, no matter how broken or crazy the kick, will keep some or all snare hits consistent on the 2 and 4. Why? That's the reference point that dj's use to mix records. Just some interesting examples. Hope it all made some sense.