J O K E R

[Dylan Thomas]

In biopics of Batman supervillains.   Got it.

They can put whatever nonsense they want in these movies.

It just makes it epically stupid, as the critic rightly noted.

[sleestak]

I guess if you require full accuracy in movies.  For me it was enjoyable as an origin story for Batman's murderous clown villain but hey, to each his own.

[Jor el]

   All the spaceships in STAR WARS are fake.

[Dylan Thomas]

I guess if you require full accuracy in movies.  For me it was enjoyable as an origin story for Batman's murderous clown villain but hey, to each his own.

Did I say I require full accuracy? No, you're putt9ng words in my mouth, and it's more nuanced than that.

It's kind of like if a woman in a movie hit and killed four people with her car, and the other characters are like, "well of course she's a terrible driver who accidentally kills people, she's a woman!"

It feels really frustrating to me at times, as most people would agree that the above inaccurate stereotype would be epicly stupid if it were used in a movie.

However, a lot of people are willing to give something just as epicly stupid like the scenario in Joker a free pass. Kevin Fallon is absolutely spot on by calling attention to just how bad this plot device is, on so many levels.

[Jor el]

   You so Crazy

[Dylan Thomas]

   You so Crazy

They most certainly will say so.

[renfield]

I guess if you require full accuracy in movies.  For me it was enjoyable as an origin story for Batman's murderous clown villain but hey, to each his own.

Did I say I require full accuracy? No, you're putt9ng words in my mouth, and it's more nuanced than that.

It's kind of like if a woman in a movie hit and killed four people with her car, and the other characters are like, "well of course she's a terrible driver who accidentally kills people, she's a woman!"

It feels really frustrating to me at times, as most people would agree that the above inaccurate stereotype would be epicly stupid if it were used in a movie.

However, a lot of people are willing to give something just as epicly stupid like the scenario in Joker a free pass. Kevin Fallon is absolutely spot on by calling attention to just how bad this plot device is, on so many levels.

Sorry to gang up on you Andy but I gotta disagree with your take here for a couple reasons.

I don't think art is supposed to function as a translation of our moral code. The protagonists in A CLOCKWORK ORANGE do far more horrible things to women than accuse them of being bad drivers. Do we need a PSA at the end of that movie announcing "By the way, the artists behind this do not endorse this behavior." I'm not convinced JOKER is making the aesop fable you and Fallon are accusing it of ("and that's why you should keep the crazies medicated!"). Lots of stuff goes wrong for Joker and he snaps; if it's making any sort of general argument it's "hey if you keep fucking over poor people by denying them medicine, social services, job security, and keep them isolated from one another, they will probably eventually get mad and start saying Eat The Rich".

Now, good for you and Fallon for having a nuanced understanding of mental health but most people simply don't. I mentioned A BEAUTIFUL MIND because it's not just a comic book reskin of TAXI DRIVER, it was literally shown to me in a fucking psychology class in public school. This is by and large how people understand mental illness and it quite reactionary to call people EPICLY STUPID for not being as woke as you are about this. And the movie takes place in the fucking 1970s when people were even more ignorant than they are now!

[mortlock]

the joker was acting in self defense.

[renfield]

Despite the fringe cultists that wanted to burn the film to the ground for daring to suggest that white male incels can feel alienated too, it was wildly financially successful and popular and was honored by those award ceremony thingies so there goes the theory that SJWs ruin everything I guess

[Jor el]

   Pull your head oot of your ass.

[Lumpy]

Birth of a Nation was only a movie too. Great storytelling!

[Lumpy]

Terrific action scenes too.

[Lumpy]

Superhero movies are not the place for moralizing, just stick to the "Good vs. Evil" plot lines.

/sarcasm

[renfield]

Do you really need every Scorsese movie to end with the protagonist eating spaghetti with ketchup and big letters come up on the screen and say "And THAT'S why you shouldn't do crimes!"

I mean I guess they kind of all do end like that.

[juan11]

Yeah, sorry, but that review posted previously* is way stupider than any dumb comic book killer clown origin story.

Crazy people are super touchy.  Only...  don't actually touch them.

*#retarded

[renfield]

I feel like I utterly vanquished Dinger in this debate but he probably never read what I posted

[mortlock]

im sure thats what went down. i was thinking the same thing.

[sleestak]

I feel like I utterly vanquished Dinger in this debate but he probably never read what I posted

Oh please.   Movies have an obligation to depict the mental illness of Batman's clown faced super villains in a responsible way.  That's why this is a shitty movie.   

[RacerX]

Clearly it's because dinger's nuts and off the meds that made the voices go away.

[Dylan Thomas]

I feel like I utterly vanquished Dinger in this debate but he probably never read what I posted

No I read it. You didnt utterly vanquish me at all, I just really got the impression that you just don't grok the concept that myself and other advocates have been trying to make, and I just don't feel it's a good use of my time to continue.

It's tough feeling the constant frustration, honestly, that those who consider themselves liberals and progressives often seem to be completely unaware of systemic oppression towards those who have been given mental health diagnoses and how this intersects with other forms of oppression and prejudice. It's disappointing to me, and I've just largely stopped engaging in the types of discussions you and I had since I just don't know how to make any headway. I think that looking at how popular culture perpetuates these stigmas and prejudices might not be the ideal entry point for a lot of people for whom this may be a bit of a paradigm shift in their worldview.

Consequently I tend to spend my energies talking to people who have are either more open to thinking about things differently or who have experienced such oppression, stigma and prejudice first hand.

I'm thinking about writing a piece about the current Coronavirus restrictions, how in the currebt suspension of "non-essential services" for those in the mental health system, who is it that gets to define "non-essential." Pro-tip - not the people who actually receive or benefit from said "non-essential" services. That seems like a more productive discussion, no offense. I did enjoy our dialog for what it was, an exchange of ideas and perspectives, and I'd like to think I learned something through the exchange.

If you want to engage in a dialog around some of these topics, perhaps discussing a comic book villain isn't the best point of entry, and a drug rock message board isn't the best venue. PM me and we can figure out another way to continue this dialog.

[juan11]