Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

[everdrone]

Do you believe in Phasing Problems: a 115 and 410 cancel out each other?

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/mixing-cabinets-phase-response-607556/


why would they make cabs like this, if the phasing cancels out bass sounds in places in a room?

the Mesa Powerhouse 1000 perplexes me:



makes me wonder if people are doing engineering by looks?? just my humble ramblingz...

as a joke:



I mean, most people are not mixing different sized speakers together in a rig!! most cabinet configurations are 112, 210, 212, 410, 810

but maybe there is good reason for the Albatross configurations ...

I have not mixed different speaker sizes together in my own rig ever, I was thinking about mixing my 12"s with my 10"s at one point, but now I have twin 410s and a 212-combo, so no need for me.

I notice that acoustics in some venues are absolutely horrible, definitely apples to oranges but I mean there is something to cancellation and phasing and stuff, I notice that when mixing songs too but that is just me listening, and not a scientific conclusion

any comments at all are appreciated

[AgentofOblivion]

I don't see how that could be the case.  If both speaker sets are going outward at the same time they are in phase and reinforce one another; if the 15 is going inward while the 10s are going outward then you're pushing and sucking air at the same time and they are out of phase.  This is not dependent on the cone size.

Rooms have cancellations because the sound waves reflect off of walls and then interact with the new ones coming out of the speakers.  Same as above:  if you have a push and a pull at the same time at a certain spot in a room (the spot depends on the frequency) then they will either add together and be too loud or cancel and be too quiet.  That's how I understand it anyway.

[AgentofOblivion]

I should have read the link before spouting off.  They are arguing that it's the enclosure-speaker interaction that causes phase differences.  I'm inclined to agree with the guy that this is splitting hairs and would be a far, far lesser problem than other factors, such as room geometry/surfaces.  But what do I know?

[FullCustom]

Who puts their 1X15 on top of their 4X10? You want that 15 to couple to the floor for maximum thunder.

[Mr. Foxen]

Mesa absolutely rely on the concept of people buying things in spite of their being crap, as long as they've paid enough for it they won't complain. Hence not having adjustable bias in their amps.

The problem with mixing and phase issues is the tone you get is unlike the tone from either cab, so instead of a cab you like the sound og, and adding more the same to be louder, you are stuck with one configuration if you like that sound, and if you have to use one cab for whatever reason, its a sound you don't like. Better getting a cab you do like the sound of, than two you don't.

The assumption that 15s are louder in the lows is basically wrong, pretty much always going to be quieter than an equivalent 4x10 because they have about half the cone area. Plus they handle less power, so the 15 on top is so you can hear the 15 fart out and turn down, otherwise the 4x10 will drown it out.

[everdrone]

I am proven to be in the waffle many times for sure  :lol:

I will never pretend to be a physics major!  I want a summary of studies done; there are definitely mixed speaker cabinets without crossovers, and famous musicians that use em, I just refuse to think these mixed-speakersize-cabs compute until I see a summary of scientific studies and some articles that approve the designs.  I mean, almost all guitar and bass cabs have two speakers of the same size, so I figure there is some rhyme and reason to it until someone explains the science to me in laymans terms in some well respected scientific type articles or guitarist article summaries.  

Until then I will gladly accept that different speaker sizes sound great together, and I hope to see some more cabs with all the speaker sizes and no crossover, a cab with 6", 8", 10" and Ill throw in some 11"er speakers and different types of cabs too to spice up the variables, and that way I cover all the sonic bases lol just kidding  

I appreciate the insights though, it is fun for me to think about

[jibberish]

in real world design terms, a certain speaker acts in a certain way and has certain physical properties.

it is easier to design a cabinet that performs with that single speaker and its physical constraints/capabilities in a way you want, than it would be combining several sets of different specs.

the next best scenario is that of duplicating only 1 type of speaker.

I could see a mindset of making the most noise out of that sized box and just filling all the area with anything that fills it.
Then I guess tweak until it works..heh idk. getting the volume/power dissipation/impedance and whatever else , all balanced out might be a real picnic though.

Overall, I suspect a lot of this vintage stuff was slapped together and either worked adequately or didn't and got re-worked until it did.  ..sans serious engineering......

[jibberish]

if you want further insight into current bass cabinet and distribution in large areas, google line array woofers and go to the various mfr websites. read their technical descriptions of all the intense troubles they have gone through to get that bass set up clean as possible to as much of the venue area as possible

they take it to the nth degree. very interesting.
See, the problem they hit was they now have to ACCURATELY REPRODUCE the music in the large venue via the large PA system. NOW they have to think like stereo guys have had to think all along.

jucifer can do anything she wants since she is creating HER 1st time unique sound. she can make that nice rich fuzz of sound from that wall of oddball cabs. I dig the sound.
if you ever get a chance, please go hear a full orchestra play for one reason only: the buzz of 30 violins all together, but not quite...is one of the most fantastically rich sounds I have ever heard in my life. jucifer has some of that going. all the same, but not quite=huge chorusing enrichening effect

now play a CD through jucifer's  mess and see what that sounds like. there's the difference in mindsets.

[Mr. Foxen]

Reasonable readable techy stuff here: http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information.htm

Also these: http://barefacedbass.com/bgm-columns.htm

[everdrone]

As a bassist, I am sick of getting drowned out!  Hence my 810 stack and my 212-500watt combo.  Thanks for the insights and articles, cheers