Celestion - how much is hype?

eyeprod · October 30, 2012, 12:00:13 PM

Speaking of obscene money, I sold a pair of fanes for $700 over a year ago. They were the kind gilmour uses in his clean rig. I possibly could have gotten more, but I took the first good offer. they were loud as fuck, but I never cared for them much for downtuned music.

chille01 · October 30, 2012, 12:11:40 PM

Right on, $55 is a killer price. My only concern with the Private Jacks, and Eminence in general, is they have very high efficiency ratings. 101 db compared to the 97-99 range of most of the rest of the speakers I'm looking at. I'm worried that they may overpower a lower efficiency speaker when paired up. But I defer to the advice of those that have more experience with speaker pairing than me. In other words, you guys.

Jake · October 30, 2012, 12:46:49 PM

If you're worried about that, just keep a pair of PJs in one cabinet (the sealed one). That's what I do. Killer, killer sounding cab.

Baltar · October 30, 2012, 01:35:10 PM

I loaded my 4x10 w/ G10C30's from Avatar for $60 a few years ago. For all four speakers. It's a different sound for sure with the 10's but at that price...

chille01 · October 31, 2012, 12:13:36 AM

Ok, so spent the evening pissing off the old lady by streaming YouTube clips of speaker demos to the Apple TV! Ha! The two speakers that I like the sound of the best according to the demos are.... Emi Private Jack and WGS Reaper HP. Both are 50 watts, and the Private Jack is just a little more efficient (99 db to 101db).

I'd really like to get one of each in both cabs, so that I get the sound of either speaker in a closed and open config, and can have both speakers if I only bring one cab to a gig. So I guess the question is if one of them is really NOT going to pan out in an open back cab, and if that 2db is going to make the cabs lopsided, volume wise?

mutantcolors · October 31, 2012, 12:17:01 AM

6db generally constitutes an audible difference, so I would not even start to worry.

Lumpy · October 31, 2012, 02:18:16 AM

It's 2 dB difference in speaker efficiency, not in a given measured volume or whatever. There is noticeable difference between 99 dB and 101 dB efficiency. Is that going to fuck up your plans? I don't know. What if the louder speaker emphasized the frequencies you wanted to push the most?

Since the Private Jacks seem to be so popular, you can probably re-sell them and not take a big loss (I always consider the cost of gear depreciation to be the price of a rental).

Mr. Foxen · October 31, 2012, 07:30:50 AM

Quote from: mutantcolors on October 31, 2012, 12:17:01 AM
6db generally constitutes an audible difference, so I would not even start to worry.

6db is the difference between a 50w amp, and a 200w amp. It is very noticeable.

Danny G · October 31, 2012, 10:42:48 AM

For the record, the Governor is Eminence's answer to the V30.

Sent from a can on some string using Tapatalk

mutantcolors · October 31, 2012, 09:05:08 PM

Quote from: Mr. Foxen on October 31, 2012, 07:30:50 AM
Quote from: mutantcolors on October 31, 2012, 12:17:01 AM
6db generally constitutes an audible difference, so I would not even start to worry.

6db is the difference between a 50w amp, and a 200w amp. It is very noticeable.

Pretty sure that's what I said, thanks for saying it again.

Drama · October 31, 2012, 09:34:13 PM

I'm using Classic Lead 80's right now. Huge low end but tight. Respond well to low tunings but keep their clarity. I'm content, for the moment.

dogfood · November 01, 2012, 01:09:57 AM

I'm running a 4x12 all Jaguars (read somewhere they are an Eminence built G12T-75 style speaker) and a 4x12 all Wizards. As for the db rating talk, when I set up a full stack, whichever cab is on top is the only one my ears pick up, standing of course. When you compare the cabs side by side the Jags so not sound bad at all, but they have a detailed high end that can be unkind to pedals (distortion/silicon fuzz) and the Wizards only come to life when dimed at 100w but holy mother of jesus what a sound. Slightly dark, big, very heavy sound, Sabbath. Four more would put a real smile on my face.

Lumpy · November 01, 2012, 02:50:43 AM

Quote from: mutantcolors on October 31, 2012, 09:05:08 PM
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on October 31, 2012, 07:30:50 AM
Quote from: mutantcolors on October 31, 2012, 12:17:01 AM
6db generally constitutes an audible difference, so I would not even start to worry.

6db is the difference between a 50w amp, and a 200w amp. It is very noticeable.

Pretty sure that's what I said, thanks for saying it again.

I'm not sure that we're all talking about the same thing. We're talking about dBs as a rating of speaker sensitivity (efficiency) not dB as a measure of hearing/loudness/volume. (They are related topics, but not the exact same thing.)

A 2 dB difference in speaker sensitivity probably makes a big difference (what started this whole sidetrack... one speaker he likes is rated at 98 dB, the other one at 100 dB). It could certainly be a problem, mixing them in one cab.

Lets say you have a 3 db difference in sensitivity between two speakers... quote: "a 3 dB increase in sensitivity of the speaker means that it needs half the amplifier power to achieve a given SPL (sound pressure level)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker#Efficiency_vs._sensitivity

My math is not good enough to figure out what a 2 dB improvement in speaker efficiency means, as far as perceived volume (rather than the 3 dB example I just gave). Somebody else should know how many extra watts it would take to match. But (to say it again in a different way) a 3 dB difference between speakers means that the less efficient speaker requires double the wattage to get to the same perceived volume as the efficient speaker. So a speaker rated at 98 db will seem like a weakling, compared to a speaker rated at 101 dB. If radical loudness is one of your goals, or if you're trying to mix speakers in the same cab, then speaker efficiency is important.

I had to learn about this a little when shopping for subwoofers. The cheap subs will have bad efficiency (96 or 98 dB) while the good/expensive ones (and huge ones) will have efficiency of 100 dB and above. That makes a huge difference. The only reason to pick an inefficient guitar speaker is if you reaaally like that specific sound (Greenbacks or whatever), or you're not too concerned about max volume (you don't have to match a loud drummer, excessive volume isn't part of your band's aesthetic, etc).

mutantcolors · November 01, 2012, 01:12:10 PM

Yeah, truth be told I haven't a clue about db as speaker efficiency, can't say I've even heard of it until today but I damn well know a thing or two about SPL. So, my mistake for confusing the two. Either way, amp wattage as it relates to volume is completely irrelevant here. I suspect that last statement may cause an argument, i.e. "but without the amp you have no volume whatsoever" to which I posit "STFU."

chille01 · November 01, 2012, 01:23:24 PM

Thanks all. A pretty interesting debate. I did a bit of googling and searching around on other forums too, and the same debate happens elsewhere. Some people say 1 or 2db is nothing to worry about, and others say it is very noticeable. Of course, then you through the idea in that everything is frequency dependent, the individual cab constructions, the settings on the amp that may push some frequencies that certain speakers also accentuate etc. etc. And of course, some people just have better ears for that kind of fine detail. There is also some debate that Eminence might use a slightly different method for measuring sensitivity, so it may not be an apples to apples comparison anyway. It doesn't seem like there is ever a definitive answer, but it sure is an interesting topic.
I think for my particular situation, I am pretty safe. I looked around the forums and it seems like the general consensus is that the Private Jack's (or any Greenback type speaker), is going to like living in a closed back cab more. The Reapers apparently do just fine in open back cabs. Since I have one open back and one closed back 212, I figure I'll put the PJ's in the closed, and the Reaper's in the open. My experience has always been that open back cabs "fill" a room a little better than closed back. Not really louder, but just... more. So I'm hoping that would make up for the couple of db less sensitivity that the Reaper's have. I won't get to have the 1 and 1 combo in each cab like I hoped, but it sounds like the PJ's probably wouldn't sound great in an open cab anyway. If I do a gig with only one cab, I'll just have to pick which sound to go with.
I'll be doing some guitar tracking pretty much as soon as these are all up and running, so a month or so from now I'll probably post some comparison tracks for those that are interested.

mutantcolors · November 01, 2012, 08:54:35 PM

I stick to my story that 1-2 audible db is not an amount you'd notice. Again though, I haven't an idea about db efficiency which seems to be an entirely different game.

ROWDYBEER · November 02, 2012, 08:07:51 AM

Anyone besides me using the weber 65's? Basically a celestian 1265 clone.

xayk · November 02, 2012, 10:42:07 PM

Quote from: ROWDYBEER on November 02, 2012, 08:07:51 AM
Anyone besides me using the weber 65's? Basically a celestian 1265 clone.

Aren't those a standard option in Emperor cabs?

A friend has UK made G12-65's in an Ampeg V5 that I lust over, but a broad web search keeps telling me that every 65 clone will leave me sad or murder my family. People have strong opinions. How do you like the Webers?

mawso · November 02, 2012, 11:15:53 PM

Quote from: chille01 on October 30, 2012, 12:11:40 PM
Right on, $55 is a killer price. My only concern with the Private Jacks, and Eminence in general, is they have very high efficiency ratings. 101 db compared to the 97-99 range of most of the rest of the speakers I'm looking at. I'm worried that they may overpower a lower efficiency speaker when paired up. But I defer to the advice of those that have more experience with speaker pairing than me. In other words, you guys.

this is completely non-scientific on my part, but i get a strong impression that eminence rate their speaker sensitivity a couple dB higher than celestion would for the same driver

certainly when i was running a private jack I didn't have the problem of it overwhelming the gt-75. it's certainly not like a V30 - ie just loud as fuck. the PJ is a good speaker for ppl who like to get the master knob up a bit to drive their power section.. which is something I've not had much luck doing with V30s.

chille01 · November 02, 2012, 11:18:18 PM

Quote from: mawso on November 02, 2012, 11:15:53 PM
Quote from: chille01 on October 30, 2012, 12:11:40 PM
Right on, $55 is a killer price. My only concern with the Private Jacks, and Eminence in general, is they have very high efficiency ratings. 101 db compared to the 97-99 range of most of the rest of the speakers I'm looking at. I'm worried that they may overpower a lower efficiency speaker when paired up. But I defer to the advice of those that have more experience with speaker pairing than me. In other words, you guys.

this is completely non-scientific on my part, but i get a strong impression that eminence rate their speaker sensitivity a couple dB higher than celestion would for the same driver

certainly when i was running a private jack I didn't have the problem of it overwhelming the gt-75. it's certainly not like a V30 - ie just loud as fuck. the PJ is a good speaker for ppl who like to get the master knob up a bit to drive their power section.. which is something I've not had much luck doing with V30s.

Well then, luckily that is EXACLTY what I wanna do. Pulling the trigger tonight.