I can't seem to find a thread for this, apologies if there already is one, iv been doing a lot of reading and pricing up over the last year and getting closer to a stage where I'll be doing a lot of recording, iv been planning to upgrade my presonus audiobox 22VSL to the firestudio project, studio one software to studio one pro and getting some decent mics, sm57's, an sm58, an AKG D112, a good condenser mic, and a dedicated laptop to start with. We've looked at going to various local studios but the idea of being able to invest in good gear and have the ability to record whenever we want is just as appealing for different reasons, I love the idea of learning and getting better over time and the satisfaction of having completely made my own music from start to finish though I realise my results wouldn't be as good as from a studio I think I'd be more fulfilled..
Post your recording/mixing/mastering questions, thoughts, answers and recordings for advice here, I won't post any of mine just yet as so far they're with poor/two mics in terrible rooms so I happen to know they are bad!
What's on my mind right now is:
Can anyone recommend a cheaper good alternative to the D112?
What's your thoughts on micing a cab up with more than one mic?
Iv read so many different opinions on how best to mic up a kit (un necessarily over micing etc) what's your thoughts based on your own experience?
Also lately I'm reading a lot on the recording space, what makes a good/bad recording room, if youve been faced with a bad room what have you done to improve it temporarily?
Do you actually mean the D12 or did you mean the D112? The D112 is about half the cost of a D12 VR, not sure how much originals go for.
I usually mic my cab with 2 mics on different speakers. All my speakers sound different so I feel it gives a more accurate sound as if you were in the room with it. Watch out for any phase issues. If you don't like it you can always just use the one track.
I prefer to have everything close miced with overheads, lately an X/Y setup. I like being able to control each drum.
For recording spaces, a good sounding room is a room that sounds good. No flutter echo, nice sounding decay. Higher ceilings are generally better for tracking drums. Improving the room really depends on what's wrong with it. Too dead, too live, etc.
"What's your thoughts on micing a cab up with more than one mic?"
-for guitar? Ive gotten good tones with an sm57 right up on the grill. ribbon mic about 6 inches back.
the ribbon adds noticeable warmth and depth to the 57. you can get by without it tho.
I recently tried micing a drum kit with one mic, like they did for led zep 2 and was amazed at the results. kit sounded great, open, and evenly mixed...except (and this i a pretyt big except) the rack toms were overblown. You are supposed ot use a LDC over the kick pointed at the snare..i only had a SDC in an LDC capsule.
looking at the picture tho, I see my problem...my drummer had two rack toms right over the kick. Bonham juts has the one way off to the side. I recommend giving this a try tho...
(http://www.nme.com/images/gallery/JP13PR240910.jpg)
chovie, I showed the zep 1 mic pic to my son , who is the drummer for his band. AAAANNNNND he coincidentally snagged an RD1. I will get him a focusrite interface so his nice mic stays nice sounding for his bday later in april. he is stoked to work with 1 mic.
I am obligated to get the ribbon since he got the LDC. we are a team and between us, we are getting some srs gear together
next up :used valve kings...
Thanks qtip I hadn't realised there was another apart from the original (which goes for around £400-700 btw) and the reissue! The d112 is still quite expensive for starting out so I'd still consider something more affordable with a good recommendation, but that already atleast halves the cost so great!
Iv read some good stuff about recording the kit with just two overheads but I can imagine it'd be really nice to mic the kick drum properly, especially to have it in the mixing stage...
overheads for drums usually just give me cymbal blast overload...thats one of the reasons I was so excited by this one mic technique.
I was worried Id need to be able to adjust bass and snare individually but both sounded just about right.
I am far from an expert or even knowledgeable about recording, i shouldve mentioned that.
Jibb, what is an RD1?
I bought a cheap chinese made ribbon mic. MXL. It arrived broken , apparently alot of em do as they are quite delicate and the ribbon gets torn during shipping. I bitched about this on the tape op forum..and the dude from Shiny Box mics messaged me, fixed the thing for free and sent it back to me WITH a cheap artdesign pre. still some good people out there in this world.
From what I've read, the D12 VR sounds more like the D112 than the D12. I think the cheapest kick mic who's name I see come up often is the Sennheiser e602. Never used it myself though. At home I have a cheap Samson QKick that sounds pretty decent. It came in a drum mic set so I don't know how much it is or if you can buy it separate. It should be cheaper than the e602.
Look up the Recorderman setup. It's 2 overheads plus kick. You could toss a snare mic on if you wanted to as well.
For the whole single micing thing, I've noticed that that's when the mic and room really come into play. I've used a cheap pencil condenser in my jam room at home and it sounded dull and lifeless. I've also used a U48 in a really nice room and it sounded amazing.
arrr. the rode NT1 LDC. mnemonic failure once again, sorry 'bout that
so I'm going to get my main man the focusrite 2i4. it has the focusrite pre's, +48v phantom for that mic. low latency thru-put.
seems like the most bang for $200. the higher models just have more features or more thru-put (firewire of course, but I don't want to dick with a firewire card even tho I have a pile of them<-remember, if you want 8 simultaneous ins, you need firewire=dedicated, non-interruptable , sweet bandwidth data convention. usb is interrupt driven. to say it has adequate bandwidth doesn't tell the whole story. you can get away with a couple channels ok, but take too much bandwidth and you get interrupted=totally unacceptable. I can even feel my usb keyboard lags a hair once in a while vs direct MB connection and dedicated kybd processing)
Anyway, he shelled out big for a w/e 200 series taylor acoustic and that mic. I just need to sew up the loose ends for him.
he has a good game pc and the noise making stuff. needs to get the DAW and interfacing square
btw, as of right now I am a HUGE taylor fan lol.
the blue ball was supposed to be a nice kick mic. remember when they were $50 and everyone grabbed one(except me, I r a retard)
also, have you auditioned the sure kick mics. like the one from the better series?
i'm kind of asking too since some day a kick mic gets added to the pile, but first more 57's and that ribbon so not happening real soon unless the deal on the one I should be watching for happens
^If that question was for me, I don't think I've ever used a Shure Kick mic myself. I think I assisted on a session where someone brought one but I can't remember how it turned out. And by better do you mean beta? From what I remember hearing in a kick mic shootout video the Beta 52 had more attack but less boom. Don't quote me on that.
I think the only (dynamic) mics I've used on kick are the QKick, D112, MD421 and the RE20.
Audix D6.
What's a reasonable mic for a 15" bass cab? I'm also interested sub $500 ribbon for guitars and possibly vocals. I'm just starting to get into it but superior drummer is really impressive. The midi tracks are really good and usable and they've got a ton of midi packs. I'm still figuring out how to work with really specific drums where I can't just add or subtract a few things to get what I want. I don't play drums and until I do it's a hell of an option.
^^^They run about $200 U.S. (the D6, that is)
I like the Shure Beta52A for kick, but that might just be what I'm used to. To me it has a rounder, more old school sound than the AKG, which sounded more clicky and modern metal to my ear. Depends on what you're going for and how you use it though.
what a learning thread. nice.
I heard some nice things about the sure kicks, so that's why I ws asking. thx all :)
I have been reading about ribbons. basically it seems like just stay with royer. i'm looking at the one that is about $350.(havig a hard time with model numbers in the brain this week) a lot of people use it. I read mix magazine and they show what FOH BOH sound guys are using on tours of bands, what engineers use for recording sessions in the studios and lots of gear reviews and mfr ads.
royer started the ribbon thing and keep developing.
also ribbons are different animals, you can destroy one by putting it close to a speaker or giving it phantom voltage. they absolutely cannot take moving air. stick with condensers for close cab mic'ing
they also pick up equally from in front or behind so they do neat stuff back in the room ambience or mess you up heh.
this is the mix magazine website. might be worth a subscription. you see a lot of setups over the years and it is nothing but sound setups and techniques.
http://mixonline.com/ (http://mixonline.com/)
Reading great things about the shure beta 52a thanks for the recommendation!
That's a great site jibbs its a good price too for what you get considering I spent £7 on a magazine yesterday which only had one decent article in it!
Iv started a scrap book with magazine cuttings, print offs and notes, serious times ;)
Can anyone advise me on buying monitor speakers?
Also as for the cab multi micing thing, you can mic based on type of mic and distance yeah, but also mic up with different angles to the cab for different sounds, I'm looking forward to experimenting and comparing the tracks...
Any other studio one users?
The Beta 52 sounds sweet on bass cabs as well as kick drums.
Edit: Based on that test, I think the Beta 52 edges out over the D6. I've also heard the D6 sound better than that. Gonna look for more.
To the OP.. Have you looked on the TapeOp forum? Lots of good info there, although if you ask questions be prepared for "it depends" to be the stock answer from most. Nice folks there though.
Personally I like all of these^ mics at different times. If I could only have one for the rest of my life, it'd be the 52. I rarely use my D6 but once in a while it's perfect. The D112 is quite popular, but I've never cared much for it on kick drums.. personal taste I guess. I really think the sounds given from any one of those mics will be decent.. not so much better or worse than another one, just different.
a quarter inch difference in mic placement probably makes way more difference than mic brand
My favorite mic technique for loud guitar cabs is a 57 and MD421, both on close up on the same cone. It's not some big trick I'm letting you in on mind you... pretty standard for rock guitar actually. Only problem is those MD421 mics are pricey, so if I'm recording myself I just rent them for the day. They make great all around mics though, so if I was serious I'd have at least 3 of them. They sound great on toms.
Another trick I like for toms is using an XLR Y cable, with the phase reversed on one side. One mic on the top, one on the bottom, and both into a y-cable so they only occupy a single track. Yeah, you can't mix them separately after the fact, but I've never needed to. Just adjust the placement to get the sound you want to disk.
This reminds me, I gotta go post our most recent recording in the recent recordings thread. Drums were tracked in our jam room by a pro I know, then we overdubbed guitars and vocals with me doing the tracking, and I did the mix. Pro buddy did a quick at home master on it. I think it turned out pretty solid sounding.
Quote from: JemDooM on April 03, 2013, 06:48:18 AM
Can anyone advise me on buying monitor speakers?
What's your budget?
Also, it cannot be overstated enough, If it's something you want to get seriously into it would be of greater benefit to spend more on room treatment and less on monitors than to blow a ton on monitors and use them in an untreated room. As was earlier stated, what your room needs is really dependant on the room itself.
Good thread too, I've been a mix/mastering engineer professionally for the last 15 years and a producer for the last 10, looking forward to seeing where this thread goes.
Quote from: chille01 on April 03, 2013, 10:59:37 PM
Another trick I like for toms is using an XLR Y cable, with the phase reversed on one side. One mic on the top, one on the bottom, and both into a y-cable so they only occupy a single track. Yeah, you can't mix them separately after the fact, but I've never needed to. Just adjust the placement to get the sound you want to disk.
I've done this for snare before, but I tend to like the bottom mic quieter. Does anyone have schematics or anything to build an inline pad that I could use for this sort of thing? Or have recommendations for buying one?
Quote from: JemDooM on April 03, 2013, 06:48:18 AM
Can anyone advise me on buying monitor speakers?
I like my Yamaha HS-50 with the Yamaha HS-10 subwoofer (self-powered monitors). I turn the subwoofer off as a test sometimes, to make sure that the mix won't sound bass-less on a system with no subwoofer. The HS-50 reveal a lot of detail, and it's taking me some time to figure out what I hear on my monitors versus the home stereo. There's a huge jump in price between good mid-level monitors, and the high end pro monitors. You'll probably be buying mid-level (price) speakers. The Yamahas I have are good, for that price-point. It sounds weird but you don't want speakers that sound 'good' (like Rockits) you want speakers that are accurate and reveal the details in your mix, whether it sounds good or not. Monitors are less forgiving than your stereo speakers.
As far as acoustical room treatment, "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good". For one thing, if you don't mix loud (I don't) then room treatment is less crucial IMO. Like pro audio guys insisting that "you can't do that!" with your PA (whereas in the real world, people are doing "that" every day and are perfectly happy) just get to work using the resources you have. Obviously, your first purchase will be monitors (not room treatment) so buy the best monitors you can afford. If you want to make your own acoustic room treatment you can find tutorials for making bass traps and room treatment on line, and step by step instructions on Youtube.
Thanks for the thoughts there guys, I'm still thinking on budget while figuring out which of the entire set up I need first and then what can wait until later, even at that the budget will be small but not rock bottom, what I want to know is the difference between getting passive or active monitors?
Thanks lumpy DIY room treatment should be fun! I'll be recording in an old warehouse that has a choice of about 20+ various rooms, any tips on what I should look for? There's a room i recorded in the past and I was happily surprised with the result despite the room basically being like a small box and recorded with falling apart nameless mics!
Will check out the tapeOp forum!
I'm looking forward to seeing where this thread goes too, especially if we can start posting up some mixes for constructive criticism, should be really interesting!
Quote from: JemDooM on April 04, 2013, 05:34:11 PM
what I want to know is the difference between getting passive or active monitors?
Without some brands for direct sound comparison/critique, it's weight vs. space. Actives will weigh more due to having the amps built in to the speakers, passives will require a separate amp. Some actives are better than some passives and vice versa, sound wise.
I'd suggest going active at this stage. Adam make good monitors and some pretty decent small sized also. I use SE Munro Eggs as primary monitors at home, with KRK Rocket 8's as secondary. At my studio I use Event Opal's as primary and SE Munro Eggs as secondary. KRK's can be had for a good price, they're decent enough but they can be a tab boomy, at least the 8's.
active monitors also have bi amps, special crossovers and many have servo feedback to really control speaker motion, some of those actives have amazing freq response due to the amp's control and often many adjustable settings. that's the real reason why you should get actives.
bi amping means a dedicated amp for each speaker. no IM distortion due to the amp playing a wide complex freq resp, so each speaker is tighter with it's bandpass of music vs the whole spread. also servo control works best when only 1 coil reactance is being dealt with vs several drivers in the circuit
Thanks guys really appreciate it :)
I'm recording at the weekend, using my 2 input presonus audiobox, shure sm58 and Shure beta sm57a...
I was thinking of getting the bass stack and guitar stack on either side of the drums and placing the mics infront but I'll have to experiment with the best placements for them, anyone got a good guess of what'd work best?
If I mic the stacks close up, the drums might get too drowned out, so I reckon the best result will be having the mics a few feet back, but still directly infront of each stack facing directly at them? Or slightly angled inwards towards the drums too?
Hmmmmm.....
Ill be recording this weekend. Live Guitar and drums. I only have two inputs...so one mic for drum, one for guitar. I got a couple goosenecks with podium mounts so I can always have my cabs ready to mic and not have floor space taken up..pretty handy.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/p480x480/604019_4562433630701_1177515170_n.jpg)
^ Nice idea and execution! Very (miss ice cream) cool.
Quote from: JemDooM on April 15, 2013, 07:32:18 AM
I'm recording at the weekend, using my 2 input presonus audiobox, shure sm58 and Shure beta sm57a...
I was thinking of getting the bass stack and guitar stack on either side of the drums and placing the mics infront but I'll have to experiment with the best placements for them, anyone got a good guess of what'd work best?
If I mic the stacks close up, the drums might get too drowned out, so I reckon the best result will be having the mics a few feet back, but still directly infront of each stack facing directly at them? Or slightly angled inwards towards the drums too?
Hmmmmm.....
You're on the right track, I think. I would try to get the best "room sound" with your two mics. Separate the amps as you said. I would probably put the mics on boom stands, up it the air, relatively far apart from each other and not too close to any one instrument. But what about vocals?
Those goosenecks are cool!
I'll overdub vocals Lumpy :) hadn't thought to have the mics fairly high up, I want to capture separate bass and guitar sounds, last time I recorded both tracks sounded pretty much the same because the instruments were all around the room and mics propped in a corner each one on a backpack and one on a sofa as we couldn't move stuff around with it not being our practise room, playing in our hometown practise rooms this time so we'll have boom stands and set up from scratch, really looking forward to it!
Got some of the best tones Ive ever laid down with a Royer 121 and Heil PR-30 on both amps, same speaker each cab.
all I ever read is how a ribbon adds the "ooh-la-la" to a recording. been eying the lower end royer for a while. you have just strengthened this conviction. i'm not grown up in my listening refinement to hit the hi end mics yet, but I bet that mic was sweet
those Royers are expensive, but man they have really changed the quality of guitar sounds for us. I know AP the engineer has been using them a ton lately and its really made his guitars sound great!
Quote from: rayinreverse on April 16, 2013, 04:33:13 PM
those Royers are expensive, but man they have really changed the quality of guitar sounds for us. I know AP the engineer has been using them a ton lately and its really made his guitars sound great!
Check this guy out for ribbon mics...Shinybox.
http://shinybox.com/index.php?osCsid=56d0bad17039aedee0f922ef95d0a65b (http://shinybox.com/index.php?osCsid=56d0bad17039aedee0f922ef95d0a65b)
They are about half the cost of the royers and he has some serious fans/users.
Very cool guy to deal with also.
I wish I had one of these RCA ribbons . This studio is where Badmotorfinger was recorded (also Lionel ritchie's dancing on the ceiling..haha). The amp was for pedal steel
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c130/E9th/twin.jpg)
this is from the same session, on the bass cab... I DO know that speakers can be used as microphones , but honestly I have NO clue wtf is going on in this photo...looks crazy right? anyone?
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c130/E9th/bassamp2.jpg)
and the board from the same studio. supposedly rod stewart pissed on it when it was nin england. :D dig those crazy Altec human sized monitors!
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c130/E9th/controlroom.jpg)
Speakers can be used as mics. It's pretty common to use on kick drums.
did some recording yesterday...super hungover today :( anyway, heres the kit with the single mic technique. the mic is a cheap SDC in an LDC capsule. mxl990 $49
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c130/E9th/drumkit_zps98780f95.jpg)
Wasn't that also the place where meatwood flack camped out to record rumors.
supposedly eric crapton crapped some of his crappy guitar playing there...
Dat muffuka needs a heli ride like a boss. Gnome sayun.
Quote from: RAGER on April 21, 2013, 05:28:40 PM
Dat muffuka needs a heli ride like SRV. Gnome sayun.
fixed it for ya
edit: forgot why I really posted.
chovie, can you soundcloud just the single mic drum track for us?
I am really curious now to hear the overall balance of all the kit pieces.
I wish that dude who spammed his band in gen would explain the mics. to me it sounded like a cymbal was closer than a drum for the same mic.
ALSO, I linked a nice live uriah heep 73-75 compilation from 3 different concerts in general sunday morning. I saw so much vintage gear I want someone to ID, I saw how the singer went over to the drum kit during a song and I heard the cymbals climb onto the vocal mic.
the keyboard player is also a fearsome bottle-slide guitar player. he uses an SG for his slide work. very cool to watch that.
my music gear ear is getting more refined.
more edits: hey chovie, [snicker snicker like a tweeny] did that beer fart cross the 0dB mark seein' as how that's the closest "percussion" instrument to the mic?
Quotechovie, can you soundcloud just the single mic drum track for us?
I am really curious now to hear the overall balance of all the kit pieces.
I second that, I'd love to hear it....
Quote from: JemDooM on April 22, 2013, 06:47:47 AM
Quotechovie, can you soundcloud just the single mic drum track for us?
I am really curious now to hear the overall balance of all the kit pieces.
I second that, I'd love to hear it....
I will try and do that some time this week, tho the drummer would probably want to kill me if he found out...everyone hates to hear their isolated tracks.
Pic is a little blurry. This was the rig I used. You can see the heil/royer set up on both cabs.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g432/rayinreverse/IMAG0564.jpg)
Nice...
Has anyone mastered for a cassette before? Is there anything in particular you need to do?
Eh. It'll sound kinda like shit anyways.
I would check the Googles, that question has surely been asked and answered.
If I was worried about it sounding kind of shit I wouldn't have self recorded with shit gear in a warehouse then put it on a tape! It's just a demo but I still need to think about how to master it...
Lumpy all the info on the googles is very wishy washy, I think it's a lot down to opinion, or experience, I wondered if anyone here has done it and learned something from it...
I think the stereotypical description of cassettes is that they are "muddy" (bassy and warm, maybe lacking a little detail in the treble). For a doom band (I assume that's you) you might find that cassettes add a nice ooomph to your recordings. Since you're the bass player, a bass-heavy demo would be extra nice. :)
If you're doing your own dubs, you can do output tests and make revisions to the master file. One trick I've heard about... play a piece of music you're very familiar with, which has production qualities you want to emulate. A/B that music with your master, and see if you can tweak your recordings to get as close as possible with your mix. Can you flip between different pieces, without a shocking difference in volume and frequency range? Some people even import that 'pro' music into their DAW (Pro Tools or whatever) and compare the waveforms.
If you're sending it out to a dubbing facility/manufacturer, ask them if they have any guidelines.
Also, maybe there is somebody local/regional who can master your material for cheap/sliding scale. Here is the US people send their files to Billy Anderson or James Plotkin (etc etc) and have them do their mastering. Does it add anything to the final recordings? I dunno. But it adds some additional interest to your recordings to say "mastered by ______". Who is your local Billy Anderson?
I wouldn't fret too much, recording quality can be overrated. Good songs trump an average mix, we see that all the time.
I was waiting to mix/master it more after some more listening and thinking etc but you've got me thinking i'll just throw it on a tape and see what happens! the tracks are already very bass heavy so hopefully it wont be bass overload, or atleast it will but in a good way, i'm recording onto tape now so I'll see if the highs need to come up, playing guitar on this so I'll want my leads to be heard, though I don't mind if theyre all murky ;) been listening to the Darkthrone demos all week so I'm more than happy for this to sound a bit like ass ;)
the bottom bass string snapped during recording and there was no spare so we had to use one much smaller than usual and hell it did not appreciate being tuned down to A! So the bass on this sounds like what we could only described as a giant scratching his balls ;)
thanks dude I appreciate the helpful thoughts :)
^^^Much more helpful than my snotty indignation.
I just don't see why cassettes are the du jour thing now (or maybe they're already passé?). They're more expensive to make than CDs, reproduce sound relatively poorly, and are generally obsolete with most systems. I get the nostaligia thing – I've got an 8-track player and a couple hundred 8-tracks. But I'd be super disappointed if a band I really wanted to hear released something on tape. The depreciation in sound really does detract from the enjoyment.
This might be overly complexbut..... One time, in the early 1990's I heard "famous grunge producer" Jack Endino go off on this subject. I wasnt paying too much attention to him at the time, but looks like he wrote an article about it.
Maybe it would be helpful?
http://www.endino.com/archive/cassettes.html (http://www.endino.com/archive/cassettes.html)
edit: after reading that it appers to be more about mastering FROM cassette, than mastering FOR Cassette, but the man is insightful nonetheless...
Quote from: Jake on May 10, 2013, 02:52:15 PM
^^^Much more helpful than my snotty indignation.
I just don't see why cassettes are the du jour thing now (or maybe they're already passé?). They're more expensive to make than CDs, reproduce sound relatively poorly, and are generally obsolete with most systems. I get the nostaligia thing – I've got an 8-track player and a couple hundred 8-tracks. But I'd be super disappointed if a band I really wanted to hear released something on tape. The depreciation in sound really does detract from the enjoyment.
they're not more expensive than CDs. You can get 100 pro-dubbed cassettes with full color J card, in a plastic shell with printed info (band name etc... on the cassette itself) for 150 dollars. Might even include shrink wrap and shipping, I forget.
http://nationalaudiocompany.com/Cassette-Duplication-Imprinting-and-Packaging-C14001181.aspx (http://nationalaudiocompany.com/Cassette-Duplication-Imprinting-and-Packaging-C14001181.aspx)
Well, they were running a special for a long time, I don't see it immediately. But that's a ballpark estimate. For CDs, the cheapest I've seen is about 4/piece. CDRs are about 2.50/piece. Many manufacturers will not do a run under 500 pieces. Your costs go up for short runs.
If you make your own dubs (and a lot of people do, probably a majority) then the cost per cassette is under a dollar.
I don't recall hearing complaints about cassettes sounding bad, back when they were one of the industry standard formats (90s I guess). Maybe people complained and I don't remember. I don't remember.
Cassettes are a cool object that fits in your pocket. CDs are not a cool object and don't fit in your pocket. MP3s fit in your pocket but are not an object.
Cassettes also put the means of production back into the hands of the workers ;)
Every format has problems...
Cassette tapes are the new fixies.
A very interesting article indeed Chovie, and to be honest quite terrifying while i'm trying to do this haha, i'll send the masters to the tape company and trust that they'll get it right...
recorded the tracks onto tape and they sound even better on the tape! Warmer like you said Lumpy. I like how tapes sound...
Jake they are just better than a cd for a demo imo, they're fatter and more satisfying physically and in sound, I don't like the 'thin-ness' of demo cd's in those thin flimsy cases, all the ones I have are squished up in a basket because there's nowhere else to put them, its not like they look good or fit anywhere so there's no point having them out, whereas tapes are fat enough to stack somewhere and see the spines. Most of my heroes released their first stuff on tape so I want to go for tape over cd for nostalgia reasons as you say and you do get a warm fuzzy nostalgia feeling when you put them in and sit waiting for them to rewind or whatever, and as lumpy said it is indeed very cheap to do, that price is almost exactly what iv been quoted....
I like tapes. can't see losing any listening pleasure by playing a tape over a cd. Does not compute. music is music. if it's good music, I prefer a rough recording over a polished one any day. personal preference.
unless you're one of those hifi only geeks and think too much on how such and such frequency doesn't transfer to tape and so you're home system is not living up to it's potential. i thought that was a different forum
interesting when the word fat is used for physical description vs a cd, well it goes same for musical description. ferrous oxide is fat. overloads clean and actually has good headroom. downside is hiss and less freq response. still 16-18k is plenty fine for rock n roll cymbals. the chrome formulations are for freq response at the cost of headroom.
jumz got hit up side the head with theee ana-LOG. I believe you sense why some of us get a bit rabid defending our vinyl and other analog stuff as being more musical. because it is.
Quote from: jibberish on May 11, 2013, 03:55:00 AMthe chrome formulations are for freq response at the cost of headroom.
i did not know that, thanks.
they further confused the issue, AND the ideal bias levels, by doing the multi layer thing with both Fe and Cr.
That's why there were "ferrochrome" tapes also. the tricky engineers wanted to have their cake and eat it too.
this is why my harmon kardon 3 head deck with a bias adjust pot is the total shit for making good recordings,( besides the insane frequency response and low distortion).
you can A/B the source and tape very quickly, plus tweak the bias until the richness vs thinness/muddiness vs sharpness equals the source's. there were even posted numbers for ideal bias values for the different brand chrome tapes like maxell xl 2 vs say tdk SA or the denon chromes and so on
edit: they eventually came out with what they called "metal" tapes. awesome headroom AND freq response, but they needed a new bias setting. that left many old decks in the dust, except me, with the bias adjust pot, bring it, anything. a/b and tweak until dialled in..next... and so on
the only thing keeping it from being god's own cassette deck would have been an eq tweak vs the set value choices
ok, this chrome thing needs more explaining.
IN THE DAY, you bought an album and a chrome cassette to record it on.
No coincidence what-so-ever that tapes are 45 min or 90 min to exactly match vinyl LP length.
how else could you take your precious music out into the car. this was huger than huger pizza.
8-tracks were too shaky and expensive to have hundreds and hundreds. but those tiny reel-to-reels were perfect. they wound clean forever. that's all you need was to keep the gum off the rollers and heads and that was the most physically tough audio system ever devised(except for solid state players now, total victory there)
in the pursuit of copying albums exactly, the rules were different from music creation. albums were compressed with 20-20k frqresponse. chrome was perfect. no surprises=no need for headroom. you recorded chromes a lot like today's digital: don't go over 0 db end of story. the lower distortion and noise and the higher freq response matched the job of DUPLICATION of LP's better than ferric oxide. remember in the studio, the tape speeds of reel to reels was heinous. cassettes only go 1 7/8 ips or some silly number like that. reel to reel is the best for everything, but the tradeoff is you use assloads of tape.
SO, the upshot is that for recording original music definitely try ferric oxide tapes, even for cassette. warmth and forgiving headroom is nice. maybe you have to use chromes and compressors on the mic channels for drum recording if cymbal or bell tree shimmers are getting lost, or do digital for that w/e
i could see maybe mastering digital onto chrome, once it was all prettied up and compressed etc.
you will get the truest COPY of the master digital file on chrome since you don't need the headroom safety net like during actual recording
one last thing: the cassette deck makes a huge difference in what your recordings sound like.
a piece of shit sounds like shit.
extra hiss, noise, wow&flutter, bias and eq error, loss of potential freq response and more distortion added.
although, a certain lo end machine may make the sweetest musical nasty tapes you ever made, so you never know until you work with the machine. a flutter problem is more of a deal breaker than poor hi freq performance for example.
i guess you look for "musical" and "non-musical" defects. the non musical ones are mutherfuckers
and feel free to try "wrong" bias and eq setting on your cassette for recording , or eq on playback. you cant hurt anything, just not optiomized levels for optimum recording blah blah
cassettes are sweet, end of jibber jabbering.
Interesting, thanks for that.
You're like a bottomless pit of knowledge jibbs ;)
So in what circumstance do you decide to make mono tracks into stereo tracks?
My tracks are mono and I read about making them stereo using the duplicate and delay technique to make the songs sound fuller, but when I tried this with the guitar/drums and bass/drums tracks I didn't like the result as much as before the change. When I tried it with the leads or vocals I'm hearing no more of an improvement than just a difference which I'm also not sure if I like better....
I'm also so damn sick of mixing and listening and mixing now, it's been over a week!
Quote from: JemDooM on May 15, 2013, 10:38:47 AM
I'm also so damn sick of mixing and listening and mixing now, it's been over a week!
That's way too long. No reason it should ever take that long to finish mixing a recording.
Hmmm i suppose that is dependant on experience, iv found it to be beneficial to mix, then leave for a day, listen, mix, listen over a few different formats/speakers, mix, listen for a couple of days, I had a trip to Scotland in the middle of it where I had a few listens on my iPod, also spent a couple of times experimenting, as this is new to me such as trying to find out if I can avoid using the limiter which it seems I can't and also the mono to stereo thing, it's been fun and interesting but I don't feel like facing it today even though I need to bring the vocals and leads down a touch and add another lead which I felt would be good...
I try to make decisions like these as quick as possible, the less time you spent on it, the better in my perspective. Make a mix with decent headphones, try it out on quality speakers and some less hifi equipment (car stereo, cheap-ish earplugs) and done. Alter the mix a bit if you feel that the balance isn't right on one of these or just say: fuck off and go with the earlier mix. I always go for a walk (smoking up before) with a new mix on my iPod to feel it out.
Quote from: JemDooM on May 15, 2013, 11:14:43 AM
Hmmm i suppose that is dependant on experience, iv found it to be beneficial to mix, then leave for a day, listen, mix, listen over a few different formats/speakers, mix, listen for a couple of days, I had a trip to Scotland in the middle of it where I had a few listens on my iPod, also spent a couple of times experimenting, as this is new to me such as trying to find out if I can avoid using the limiter which it seems I can't and also the mono to stereo thing, it's been fun and interesting but I don't feel like facing it today even though I need to bring the vocals and leads down a touch and add another lead which I felt would be good...
I was joking. It takes however long it takes. Sometimes years.
Oh ;) I read your comment and was like, oh no! what am I doing! :o
Zodiac I'm thinking your probably right there!
Didn't you use more than one mic? Pan one mic slightly to one side, pan the other mic to the other side.
Quote from: JemDooM on May 15, 2013, 10:38:47 AM
So in what circumstance do you decide to make mono tracks into stereo tracks?
My tracks are mono and I read about making them stereo using the duplicate and delay technique to make the songs sound fuller, but when I tried this with the guitar/drums and bass/drums tracks I didn't like the result as much as before the change. When I tried it with the leads or vocals I'm hearing no more of an improvement than just a difference which I'm also not sure if I like better....
I'm also so damn sick of mixing and listening and mixing now, it's been over a week!
whoops, you tried that and didn't like it. i had to edit out telling you to do just that lol, ahem....
maybe you have to double your parts by hand. lots of bands double the vocals and guitars.
here is an example of a doubled guitar part. you can ignore my bullshit vocals, but notice after the first full phrase, how the second phrase, and the rest of the tune, is much richer sounding (covered the rhythm to cathedral's north Berwick witch trials song) just 2 guitars and the metronome drum machine is in there, nothing extra
[soundcloud]https://soundcloud.com/doktordeath/myberwick[/soundcloud]
Your link is invisible dude unless its my phone not loading something? :*
Most people I know who've recorded layered up the guitars several times by hand which I'd love to try out in the future but I'm feeling that its good to keep things real and natural too, as for trying to thicken it up through mixing I think I'm actually ok with the sound of two mics each mono, I'm just not sure if I should be making the tracks stereo, but like I say I didn't hear a significant improvement from doing that...
Am I right in thinking that instead of using a delay of milliseconds when duplicating mono tracks you could instead eq them differently for the same purpose of making the separate tracks distinguishable?
I think I'm finished mixing this now, even more so because we gave the tracks to Soggy Bob for his latest show which was awesome of him :)
So much to learn....
Quote from: JemDooM on May 16, 2013, 11:26:21 AM
Your link is invisible dude unless its my phone not loading something? :*
Most people I know who've recorded layered up the guitars several times by hand which I'd love to try out in the future but I'm feeling that its good to keep things real and natural too, as for trying to thicken it up through mixing I think I'm actually ok with the sound of two mics each mono, I'm just not sure if I should be making the tracks stereo, but like I say I didn't hear a significant improvement from doing that...
Am I right in thinking that instead of using a delay of milliseconds when duplicating mono tracks you could instead eq them differently for the same purpose of making the separate tracks distinguishable?
I think I'm finished mixing this now, even more so because we gave the tracks to Soggy Bob for his latest show which was awesome of him :)
So much to learn....
your instincts are good, keep it simple, dont overthink it, dont do a million overdubs.
I made a soundcloud account. I cannot share the soloed drum track because there was so much bleeed it made it futile, so i heres the whole track. This is a duo, guitar and drums, no bass. we are improvising this "song" and a little drunk by this time. then I added some quick improved vocals and a fuzz probe guitar solo. so 2 mics, single mic on drumset, 4 total tracks, nothing doubled. not much eqing or panning.
the fuzzprobe solo is at the end for those of you wondering what that effect sounds like..im pretty happy with how that part turned out. so im posting this so you can get an idea of the single mic drum micing technique....cheers.
[soundcloud]https://soundcloud.com/chovis-mcd/shop-till-you-drop-mp3[/soundcloud]
I think you guys might need to post the links as I'm thinking there are embeds that aren't loading on my phone, stuck in work so no laptop!
https://soundcloud.com/chovis-mcd/shop-till-you-drop-mp3 (https://soundcloud.com/chovis-mcd/shop-till-you-drop-mp3)
or check it later...hope it helps some... 8)
wait! you are going to listen to this on your phone?? >:(
That sounds awesome Chovie!! That fuzz is too awesome too! And yeah I'm stuck in work for 20 hours and these iPhone speakers are actually quite acceptable so forgive me!! I'll have a proper blast again at home though, I love home recordings, two peices and drunken music making! ;)
cool thnx... we need a name.
I'm thinking something with Unicorns?
Howsabout The Rainbow Unicorns?
Oohh i love anything to do with unicorns! ;) im currently writing an epic song about them, through my research i found the following names for them in history: Re'em & Monoceros, also Julius Caeser spoke of seeing one in the 'Hercyniun Forest' a place "abound with wonders" so I suggest
Hercyniun Forest of Unicorns
;)
Quote from: Chovie D on May 16, 2013, 02:57:02 PM
cool thnx... we need a name.
I'm thinking something with Unicorns?
Uni-cornholer
Quote from: Chovie D on May 16, 2013, 01:03:56 PM
https://soundcloud.com/chovis-mcd/shop-till-you-drop-mp3 (https://soundcloud.com/chovis-mcd/shop-till-you-drop-mp3)
or check it later...hope it helps some... 8)
wait! you are going to listen to this on your phone?? >:(
That was dope (do the kids still say that?) I liked the vocals a lot. And the guitar solo. Everything, really. Hell yeah.
Recorded with a single H4 in a 10x10 room and it kinda sounds like it. One off jam with an old drummer buddy. funto listen to just the drums if anything.
[cloudset]https://soundcloud.com/rager-1/rager-markey[/cloudset]
Oh and that was killer chovie. I'm on my second listen.
thanks people. all of what we are doing is improvised, which it turns out is a really fun but difificult way to get songs...most of it sounds like we wanna be "Crazy Horse". we have no clue what we are doing really
right now Im thinkin:
"Gay Unicorn" for the band name?
whomever Coltsblood is, I listend to a track and it sounded good, the sounds were good...is that your group Jem?
That sounded really good, super heavy fuzz tone! I liked the Vocal F/X too.
vocal effect is a rat pedal sim (line 6 toneport)...and digital delay.
I think most of the "effect" is actually just the way i "sing"?
Quote from: Chovie D on May 16, 2013, 05:21:08 PM
vocal effect is a rat pedal sim (line 6 toneport)...and digital delay.
I think most of the "effect" is actually just the way i "sing"?
Sweet! my Buddy and I are getting into Fuzzes for Vocal and Harp Effects, I dig it!
Quotevocal effect is a rat pedal sim (line 6 toneport)...and digital delay.
I think most of the "effect" is actually just the way i "sing"?
Yeah I think that's a lot of it! your vocals are awesome :)
Yeah Coltsblood is my stuff Chovie and thanks! Still trying to find my way with playing, sound and recording...
Need to try out my guitar delay for vocals next time as vocal effects pedals seem to be really expensive!
jem it sounds like you guys are defo on the right track, I thought the recorded sounds were good. the drums sound good! thats hard to do. your stuff might really benefit from a more pro mix when its time to finally lay it down because it will be nice to get some more separation between bass and guitar frequencies? Thats something I really struggle with in that kind of music. got any studio frineds who could give it a try for free?
I will usually put effects (other than dirt) on instruments or voices AFTER i record them..I am working in a DAW (tracktion 3) and using virtual effects. I use a set of free ones i downloaded and like alot , they are caled kjaerhaus classic series. good delay, compressor etc.
they can be found here
http://www.vstwarehouse.com/2011/06/kjaerhus-audio-classic-series.html (http://www.vstwarehouse.com/2011/06/kjaerhus-audio-classic-series.html)
i use the delay and compressor on almost every recording I make
Thanks Chovie! It's hard to get separation from the guitar and bass frequencies because its all so down tuned and the guitar is through bass head/cabs, we're recording with Chris fielding late in the summer he's excellent at recording the heavy, I can't wait to learn from him :) I really want to record it all live but so far my bandmates disagree...
I like to add effects afterwards too just to start with a clean base and really hear what's going down...
I'm still confused over the actual difference between using the compressor and limiter? I'm really wary of both because I know they can take away from the real sound...
I never could get my head around how a copmressor works or what the terms mean..soft knee/ hard knee? attack, decay? I never figured it out, and i tried, even read some pretty heady books on the subject.
The effects I linked to have pre-sets and on the compressor I will use the presets (drums, vocals, etc).
I'll use compression on vocals and pedal steel to even out the volume fluctuations.
My mastering software is the same way..i dont know how to work it...I just use a pre-set and maybe tweak the eq a tiny bit.
In short, i really dont know what I am doing when it comes to recording, but I am usually quite happy with the way my recordings sound..and thats all that matters in the end right? :)
Cheers
Hehe ;) I know that one of them (attack or release?) controls how much of a loud sound e.g a harsh cymbal gets through before its cut?
I just mess around turning things back and forth to hear the difference, like you I read up on it but it didn't stick! I'll have to read it all up again!
If the ratio is 10:1 or above, you're limiting. If it's below 10:1 you're compressing.
you lost me at "ratio".. :(
The ratio is basically the amount of compression applied, based on your threshold setting.
If you set the threshold to -10 dB and the ratio to 4:1 and you have a signal with a peak of say -6 dB, which is 4 dB over the threshold that signal will be reduced by 3 dB (4:1) so your actual output would end up being -9 dB.
It's really not the easiest thing to explain in text for me, it's a lot easier to show on an actual compressor.
I can mebee do a video or something to show a little easier.
thanks for trying. I think Im kinda hopeless. other people have tried to explain it to me beofre as well. ive read books, It juts kinda goes in one ear and out the other. thanks tho.
hey chief, the mono mic drums are all there in that neato little piece. that was my main question.
I was thinking about spatial concerns via one mic, but actually some side to side space is maintained by the actual time delays to the mic since each kit piece is a different distance. anyway, the perception flies nicely.
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compressor comments based on my alesis nano compressor which I used on vocals into my 4 track cassette a lot:
limiting=straight cutoff point. the knees and ratio is what got explained above. the more above the threshold you go , the harder the limiter sits on the gain
hard knee is a harsh kill switch, but you need that for keeping under an absolute drop dead threshold level. for example, stupid crap like "P" pop can blow the meters away. it is an obnoxious sound anyway, so it makes no noticeable effect, just knocks the db's way down
if your signal isn't getting away from you , you don't need limiting at all, but maybe it should be there as a safety belt on any digital recordings, especially vocals. any digital recorder has limiting as an effect to be sure. the Tascam dp-24 has a separate set of effects specifically for incoming recording.
here is the theory of comp, not that I really know how to use one correctly...yet.
compression is an effect to reduce the dynamic range of a signal. it squashes the loud and boosts the quiet.
can I use a parametric eq as an analogy? ok. I can set a center frequency on my equalizer right? like I set the center to 10khz. ok so my eq boost/cut is now centered at 10k, but how wide is the effect? well I select the "Q" and maybe I choose a big one of 2 octaves w/e 5k-20k, or maybe I go the other way down to a little 1/3 octave spike(very small Q) so im only doing 1/3 octave like from 9k-13k.
you set the threshold on the compressor like your center freq on an eq. you set the compression amount/ratio like the Q on the eq. the knee is like the the rolloff on an eq, is it 20db/octave? 30? w/e well the ratio is about that. how much boost/cut in volume with respect to the actual incoming volume
but watch it because goofy crap like the noise floor is really quiet and ergo becomes x db louder compared to compressed music material being squashed down. heavy comp starts the breathing bullshit.
I can walk through the ratio math like on paper, but I haven't played enough to really "feel" what the ratios mean so I have no subtle info on the use of the comp as an effect. I used the limiter basically.
also, you can tweak compression all day in your DAW once you have a clean take and redo all the booboos a thousand times
edit: you could consider a noise gate as a limiter on the bottom end. anything below a certain threshold is just cut off.
nice one e9th. that fuzz probe sounds great. I've been using my minibrute as a guitar and bass pedal, and whoa it does some mind blowing sounds. I tried the one mic on drums again in our practice space, but ended up keeping one on the kick and another just above it, more or less pointed towards the snare. Seems to be a good combo and simple. Oh man, I forgot to mention that I tried running the kick through a mixer and then into the minibrute audio in (then back into my bass rig) and that worked too. Kick can trigger a crazy oscillating drone, or just a short but very deep note that makes the kick more "electronic" or synthy sounding. Anything you want to do with it really. Pretty cool possibilities if you're into acid tones. Sounds like you are. I wanna get another one or two of these synths. For the price they make a really great sounding filter if nothing else.
Picked up a Royer R121 mic yesterday. I quite dig it.
Here's a quick clean but heavy on modulation effects recording. Chain is Les Paul Custom Shop Class 5 with Suhr Aldrich Pickups > Neunaber Chorus > Strymon Timeline Delay > heavily modded Blackheart 3watt amp (because, fuck it, why not?!) > Hughes & Kettner Coreblade 4x12 w/ Classic Lead 80's > Royer R121 > Apogee Symphony interface > Logic Pro.
4 tracks here, two rhythm panned hard left and right, two "lead" also panned hard left and right. All multi tracked, no duplicating of tracks. No post processing or edits in Logic.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13108344/blackheartdemo.mp3
Quote from: Chovie D on May 16, 2013, 02:57:02 PM
cool thnx... we need a name.
I'm thinking something with Unicorns?
There was a band here recently called the Fucking Unicorns. I don't think they are around anymore... One of those 3 shows and done kind of bands. Never saw them.
Quote from: Drama on May 19, 2013, 08:39:13 AM
Picked up a Royer R121 mic yesterday. I quite dig it.
Here's a quick clean but heavy on modulation effects recording. Chain is Les Paul Custom Shop Class 5 with Suhr Aldrich Pickups > Neunaber Chorus > Strymon Timeline Delay > heavily modded Blackheart 3watt amp (because, fuck it, why not?!) > Hughes & Kettner Coreblade 4x12 w/ Classic Lead 80's > Royer R121 > Apogee Symphony interface > Logic Pro.
4 tracks here, two rhythm panned hard left and right, two "lead" also panned hard left and right. All multi tracked, no duplicating of tracks. No post processing or edits in Logic.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13108344/blackheartdemo.mp3
that does sound really nice. letting that loop , loop is pretty cool
btw, the royer, can I have it
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