I'm working on a Mid 70's ORSL120, the customer found it at a yard-sale. We'll be putting some pics on the Facebooks, some might find their way here as well.
I looked at the new OR series I was disappointed with the lack of the FAC control. I guess there're not going for the original bear attach sound of the OR120. Anyone played the OR15?
Can't help you there but I sure wish I was at that garage sale.
the new oranges have little to do with the schems from the 70s.
The OR15 is cool enough in its own way.
I'm heading to Orange soon to check out the new OR100, I'm not sure if it's something I'll personally get on with but will be cool to have a play with one.
I finished the Slave 120. I think I like it better than the OR120. I think I used half my bag of tie wraps though. Put TAD 6L6WGCs in it for a faux KT66 sound.
I'm sure it's impossible but a kit to add a board into one of these new Oranges to replace the stock preamp with a vintage style one would be awesome.
I've been seeing more and more of these popping up used for fairly cheap some of the time.
The OR15 sounds like high gain garbage.
It'd be nice to know what sort of tone stack they are using before ripping the PCB out of an OR15. The three band Baxandall would be sweet. But I have a feel it's just of the Marshall/Bassman flair. I'd go for a better output transformer before ditching the PC board.
Have you ever seen the inside of a new Orange? They're fucking awful. Shit construction, shit designs... don't bother, haha. Build something real. The new Oranges all sound like high gain metal amps, akin to Peavey 5150s and shit.
I dig my thunderverb 50, it really gets that DOWN tone
the or1oo seems promising for some :)
if it has a mid control, assume its a FMV from a marshall or fender. There is not true mid control for a baxandall.
My advice is buy something else for the price you will pay for the Orange.
Quote from: dunwichamps on February 08, 2013, 12:52:09 AM
if it has a mid control, assume its a FMV from a marshall or fender. There is not true mid control for a baxandall.
My advice is buy something else for the price you will pay for the Orange.
Like Apple stock, or something.
Have a look on utube for an American band called 'Rival Sons' the guitarist ... The guitarist uses a Firebird through a Thunderverb and fuzz pedals
sounds great, play what you like! ;)
Quote from: dunwichamps on February 08, 2013, 12:52:09 AM
if it has a mid control, assume its a FMV from a marshall or fender. There is not true mid control for a baxandall.
My advice is buy something else for the price you will pay for the Orange.
Um, dude... You can do a five band Baxandall if you want. It would just take a lot of capacitors and at some point a graphic EQ with chokes or gyrators would be more practical.
Quote from: FullCustom on February 08, 2013, 10:17:26 AM
Quote from: dunwichamps on February 08, 2013, 12:52:09 AM
if it has a mid control, assume its a FMV from a marshall or fender. There is not true mid control for a baxandall.
My advice is buy something else for the price you will pay for the Orange.
Um, dude... You can do a five band Baxandall if you want. It would just take a lot of capacitors and at some point a graphic EQ with chokes or gyrators would be more practical.
You're right you can
modify the Baxandall tone control circuit to have as many bands as you want but the
original circuit as designed by Peter Baxandall is only treble and bass so more than treble and bass isn't a true Baxandall tone circuit which is what Dunwich said.
As promised, the ORSL120
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/382369_10151456483711346_1074978140_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/531613_10151456482701346_819972483_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/529632_10151456483476346_520329578_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/560122_10151456483511346_519738379_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/531898_10151456483431346_714108431_n.jpg)
Quote from: FullCustom on February 08, 2013, 10:17:26 AM
Quote from: dunwichamps on February 08, 2013, 12:52:09 AM
if it has a mid control, assume its a FMV from a marshall or fender. There is not true mid control for a baxandall.
My advice is buy something else for the price you will pay for the Orange.
Um, dude... You can do a five band Baxandall if you want. It would just take a lot of capacitors and at some point a graphic EQ with chokes or gyrators would be more practical.
sure it could be but starting with just the baxandall or james (technically james is more correct) and using that circuit alone there is not much you can do to add a control which boost or cuts mids. Now you could have a separate EQ that could do that ala Ampeg SVT or V4 which had a active mid range control using the tapped toroid but I doubt Orange would invest that much component real estate. Its most likely a FMV as Orange has generally abandoned using bax/james EQ if you check through their schematics for Post OR amps like The AD series, RV series, and TV series ect. Its fine if its an FMV, just does not reflect the actual OR circuit if thats the case
Let me google it for you...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=3%20band%20baxandall&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42080656,d.dmQ&biw=1024&bih=671&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=z5cVUYLSEdHW0gHb0YGIDQ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=3%20band%20baxandall&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42080656,d.dmQ&biw=1024&bih=671&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=z5cVUYLSEdHW0gHb0YGIDQ)
Three bands, two break frequencies. It's in some books that I own too.
Ever see that in a commercial tube amp? Im just saying its extremely unlikely they will throw something like that in there. Plus that is an active baxandall not the passive james EQ Orange used. Im talking more about taking the passive james EQ and somehow adding a mid range control. I dont think anyone has shown a design for that. You could design a active 3 band baxandall in a tube amp but that is quite far from the passive james EQ.
Quote from: FullCustom on February 08, 2013, 07:30:41 PM
Let me google it for you...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=3%20band%20baxandall&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42080656,d.dmQ&biw=1024&bih=671&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=z5cVUYLSEdHW0gHb0YGIDQ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=3%20band%20baxandall&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42080656,d.dmQ&biw=1024&bih=671&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=z5cVUYLSEdHW0gHb0YGIDQ)
Three bands, two break frequencies. It's in some books that I own too.
Those results have opamps/ICs running them. Tube amp fail.
I am definitely not an amp builder and am in the peanut gallery of musicians on many levels, but my two cents:
Orange sounds awesome! They mix retro sounds with modern rock. I dig the way it sounds on recordings such as Stone Sour, Down, Mastodon, Rival Sons, Led Zeppelin's recent reunion gig, local bands that use em, etc etc
I doubt the circuitry is so aweful that it is just gonna fail too. They are dependable enough for me anyway, maybe they won't last till armageddon, but only cocroaches will last that long along with Keith Richards, lets face it ;D
I doubt that many on this forum like any current production out of any of the popular mainstream amps these days:
Orange
Marshall
Peavey
Blackstar
Ampeg
its all rubbish!! ;D ??? ;D hah!
Peavey stuff is made sensibly, I don't mind working on them, but don't get them so often. Rest are all nasty shite. It is possible to make things to last, its a choice to not do it. Not like Orange amps are cheaper than Peaveys, even here, but they are made in ways that are going to fail more easily and be harder to fix (aside from Peavey tend toward fiddlier circuits). Also there is exactly problems with Orange circuits causing them to fail, underspec caps in Bass Terrors blow their guts out. I've had a lot of amps with caps blowing their guts out, but generally, they've earned it over 30 or 40 years.
Wireless World 1952, Tube Driven Active Baxandall.
http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/wwarchive/Baxandall%20tone-control%20Oct52%20p3.jpg (http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/wwarchive/Baxandall%20tone-control%20Oct52%20p3.jpg)
A modified Baxandall is still a Baxandall.
It's best not to get into a semantic disagreement with them.
Regardless, Orange amps don't have them. Especially not ones with a mid control.
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on February 11, 2013, 11:33:49 AM
Regardless, Orange amps don't have them. Especially not ones with a mid control.
Sadly you are most likely correct. But, even the active Baxadall would only require three more capacitors. So cost is a non-issue. Which makes it even more sad.
Wouldn't it need a whole other valve to run it due to the active? Or would the tone stack recovery one do it, barely considered tone stack losses since I just fix existing stuff.
There is no insertion loss with an active stack. So no recovery stage is needed.
An orange with an active baxandall would not be a orange persay since they used passive james EQs. Not that it would sound bad but the passive EQ + recovery stage is a lot different then an active EQ with no additional gain stages. When you say crank the passive EQ up you are now getting additional gain and clipping before the phase inverter. Once again there is no mid control for the James EQ. I have tried a bunch of things to mod the EQ but nothing useful. The Shift control makes the 100k resistor which separates the B and T into a rheostat with max value of 500k. It has some adjustment to the mids but not like a bandpass/reject filter does. Could also make a separate mid control of course else where in the circuit.
Stop dicking around and read some books. Its not hard to set up a band-pass and a second break-frequency and it works with an active or passive stack.
Baxandall
Baxandall
Baxandall
Baxandall
Baxandall
Baxandall
...There is also a mid-only single control bax-y. I've use it, it sounds great.
(http://www.dmfiat.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/picard-facepalm.jpg)
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l6lnjaLF3t1qzfxk0o1_500.png)
Alrite you seem pretty confident on this
Here is the EQ out of a Orange or Matamp.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/556181_10101102578720291_61015481_n.jpg)
Design a mid control into this that:
1. Boosts Mids
2. Doesn't significantly alter to the sweep of the Bass and Treble controls
3. Doesn't add another gain stage to control the mids.
This is my favorite type of dickwagging! IM LEARNING AND BEING AMUSED
I don't have to. Some else did. There is also 15 pages of Baxandall fun in there.
Page 274, Chapter 10, Figure 10.19: The Circuit of a Baxandall three-band EQ using one stage only.
http://www.amazon.com/Small-Signal-Audio-Design-Douglas/dp/0240521773/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360618703&sr=8-1&keywords=douglas+self (http://www.amazon.com/Small-Signal-Audio-Design-Douglas/dp/0240521773/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360618703&sr=8-1&keywords=douglas+self)
Want it passive? Change the end stop resistors and ground the feedback.
You cant see anything in that book. The preview doesnt show anything really.
Why dont u reproduce the scheme and show me it works if you have access to it
Quote from: dunwichamps on February 11, 2013, 04:59:55 PM
You cant see anything in that book. The preview doesnt show anything really.
Why dont u reproduce the scheme and show me it works if you have access to it
Why don't I hold your hand the next time you design an amp(probably a little harsh)? It's copyrighted material that I paid for. I have great respect for Mr. Self and own a few of his books. Also he does have some free info on his personal website. http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/ampins.htm (http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/ampins.htm)
I'd be way down for designing my take on an OR with Mids, but not for frees.
Ill hold off on a snarky response since it wont get anywhere.
I dont need you to design anything. I am merely interested in the point of whether there is a passive mid control that is able to be incorporated. however I will hold my breathe til I see a scheme using a 12ax7 and simulations showing the output. If you dont wanna reproduce anything, thats fine but I wont believe it much til I see some actual beef.
My overall point is that yes you can definitely make an active baxandall with many bands. I have done that already in SS preamps using op amps. however, what im looking to see is a mid control that can be integrated into the basic Matamp EQ without changing the entire nature of the EQ and thus the amp all driven from 12ax7.
Here is some idea I came up with that uses an mid control in a feedback loop that is all mid boost combined with a james EQ. Mid control stolen from a Burman that Oli showed me today.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/529656_10101102674603141_1187779665_n.jpg)
Works fairly well with the only drawback being that the driver stage for the mid control uses up a triode but it can also drive the james EQ
However this is kind like taking some mid control and then having a baxandall. Its not exactly what would be ideal where the circuit was built into the baxandall. It sort of colors the amp a bit, not that its bad since I purposely doing that in this design.
In short: Orange amps with a mid control are not trad Oranges. Orange amps have never had Baxandall tone stacks, neither have Matamps (except maybe the newest GT200). Fender style 3 bands are the thing that makes amps into one trick ponys. FullCustom can't back up his claims to understand circuits with demonstrations as well as dunwichamps can and hides behind books only he can see.
So we have a world-wide communication network that we can use for 24/7 dick swinging. But a passive tube drive 3 band Baxandall EQ - unpossible! Meh, seem legit.
i never said impossible I just have not seen a mid control for a james EQ before. Thus why I asked to see something.
Doesn't the tube drive bit make it active, what with it not being passive any more due to active component?
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on February 11, 2013, 05:57:43 PM
Doesn't the tube drive bit make it active, what with it not being passive any more due to active component?
An active EQ or Volume control is one that is driven via negative feedback. Passives shunt to ground.
I'll go hide behind my books now...
Quote from: dunwichamps on February 11, 2013, 05:44:09 PM
i never said impossible I just have not seen a mid control for a james EQ before. Thus why I asked to see something.
Yeah, it is a bit of a unicorn in the tube world. But so are sweep-able mid controls. That is possible too but no-one does it.
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on February 11, 2013, 05:57:43 PM
Doesn't the tube drive bit make it active, what with it not being passive any more due to active component?
If its in some kind of feedback loop like the Ampeg SVT mid control or the mid control on the Burman then its active or likely active. Another tell tale symbol is that the insertion loss is 0. Passive stuff all has some kind of insertion loss in order to be able to cut selectively.
Most commercial amp makers tend to be traditional or in other words they often copy each other. If you picked any random amp, statically its most likely to just be a passive FMV. Thats why I said that its more likely that the new oranges are using FMVs then any more designed EQ such a modded james to get a mid control or a james + another mid control.
Quote from: FullCustom on February 07, 2013, 09:23:21 PM
It'd be nice to know what sort of tone stack they are using before ripping the PCB out of an OR15. The three band Baxandall would be sweet. But I have a feel it's just of the Marshall/Bassman flair. I'd go for a better output transformer before ditching the PC board.
As I said earlier in the thread, most likely of the Marshall/Bassman flair but something better would be sweet. New Orange amps sound like 90's Marshall amps with but slightly better iron. But people like them and they sell.
Having tinkered with the Terror bass and thunderverb, those have Fender style eq from listening to them.
TV, RV, and AD series amps are FMVs in some shape or form.