I was looking on ebay and see that old Elesis Adats are doing for about 100 bucks and Tascam d88 are going for about 250. I was thinking about picking one up for recording my band. I really hate computer based recording and good analog is way too much money for me right now. I just want something that is just push button simple.
What do you think? what should I be looking for in a dat machine what should I stay away from, what other gear to I need to make it work?
thanks
stay away from adat. it is old and going away.
I had an old roland vs-880 8-track. well I still have it. the power section died, but it was my mixer, effects, editor right there. never crashed since it was a dedicated system, that thing was pure handy-dandy for everything
well the hard disk recorders have gotten incredibly awesome for incredibly cheap now. getting rid of the hard drive for multi gig memory cards was big.
they have nice LCD screens now for editing
there is a Tascam 24track with a cd burner, effects, and an assload of other cool stuff including 8 mic pre's, 8 track simul recording...open box $459.
new on sale-$600-$700 maybe. you cant buy a mixer, stereo effects unit, compressors, cd burner all for$500 either..oh ya, and recorder..
right here zsounds brand new $549 or w/e
http://www.zzounds.com/item--TASDP24 (http://www.zzounds.com/item--TASDP24)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQeNOo0_6hXwd-lrQwNgLreL3hzqWwvvK_YABMJgyfvozxnHdTj)
IMO, now IS the time to grab a HD recorder. also,l if any of you hav used pro tools(my pal has a nice pro tools setup.) that software and mac and all the other stuff makes clicks and ticks and is more of a pain to get stuff done then just on the HD recorder. it sounded nice as hell,(blueberry->Avalon pre-> forgot the high end a/d-> full mac pro/tools, Mackie monitors and mixer
edit: regarding what other gear you need: not a damn thing except maybe a usb cable and extra memory cards
DAT? Really,DAT?
You're funny!
I say go for it....buy them all while you're at it.
I know they are not the best and on their way out but for 100 bucks of simple 8 track recording it might not be a bad deal. I'm just trying to figure out what would be the best machine. Tascam? Elesis? what model.
these are tape machines that stripe digital. editing is clunky. alesis came out with it in early 80's. you could daisy chain like 10 for a whole studio.
you need tapes. they fuck up.
seriously, if you want to just hit record and do stereo, get an old hi-fi VHS VCR. those actually have great specs. we have discussed this before in threads.
if you really want to relax and do your recording, a mixer rules. plug shit in and out for any particular take. I just shot a price point up there. you can get little 4 tracks for $100 and nice old like Yamaha HD recorders for $200-$300
any of which, IMHO, would be so much more convenient and useful than adat.
Quote from: jibberish on December 02, 2012, 10:38:30 PM
these are tape machines that stripe digital. editing is clunky. alesis came out with it in early 80's. you could daisy chain like 10 for a whole studio.
you need tapes. they fuck up.
seriously, if you want to just hit record and do stereo, get an old hi-fi VHS VCR. those actually have great specs. we have discussed this before in threads.
if you really want to relax and do your recording, a mixer rules. plug shit in and out for any particular take. I just shot a price point up there. you can get little 4 tracks for $100 and nice old like Yamaha HD recorders for $200-$300
any of which, IMHO, would be so much more convenient and useful than adat.
The vcr is cool but I want to be able to multimic a drum kit then mix it down later. I have a good old peavey 12 channel mixer. I'm just really opposed to anything computer based with little "menus" and what not. I just want multitrack push button simplicity for under 200.
I thought if I could find a machine with low hours I could make some cheap pretty good sounding recordings.
I see. so you already are using a mixer. the reason I suggested that Tascam is because you said "record the band". that thing can record 8 tracks at once. you plug all your shit into the 8 main inputs. funny how you need just about 8. you arm all 8 tracks for recording, then then tape deck like controls you hit pause/rec to meter while you set levels(never crap out digital, ie never cross to the + side of 0dB) and release pause, start playing
I don't think you understand how nearly impossible it is to do your mixdown recording live off a many-channel board. maybe you could cheat and compress/limit every channel to keep them all the same volume and dynamics, but thta's why you mix down multi tracks, so you can fuck with all the dynamics and actually get a good mix. EXCEPT now you have a real tape machine that just runs back and forth..
edit: wait, I see, you could mix down the 8 adat tracks with that mixer again to stereo. now you need a stereo recorder, more crap.. ok.. heh
i'm saying, combine that $250 adat machine+shipping+a pile of adat tapes, and use $200 from your xmas money and get that Tascam. now you can do anything you want bam boom. editing is "non-linear" there is no rewind and fast forward. just instant memory access on the hard drive or memory card.
it weighs nothing since it is plastic and a couple smd PCB's. you have mixer, effects, effects loops 4 busses, eq/limit/comp. nice editing on the lcd screen for getting down and dirty. put different projects on different memory cards like floppy disks, burn CD's right from the Tascam since you were able to mix down your 24 track masters right on the machine. each of those 24 tracks probably has w/e 64 or 256 phantom trqacks for placing alternate takes. so once you pick the soloyou like, you swap that phantom track for the one you are really using, and none of those takes is destroyed, only pushed back in storage. download to pc for uploading. add effects post processing or on the fly, or one wet and one dry..
see spook, almost no one here has owned a capable hard disk recorder, so they don't have anything cool to say about it. it is the 1 piece of gear total recording studio solution and you get spoiled fast using a dedicated machine, dedicated to recording music
I have zero experience with DATs but I wouldn't want to mess with anything digital with tapes. I'd save up a bit for this bad boy- http://tascam.com/product/dp-03/
Tascam stuff tends to be relatively easy to use so I suspect the menu scrolling would be minimal. Under $300 on ebay-
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=Tascam+DP-03&_sacat=0&_from=R40
Now I kinda want one.
Quote from: liquidsmoke on December 02, 2012, 11:33:53 PM
I have zero experience with DATs but I wouldn't want to mess with anything digital with tapes. I'd save up a bit for this bad boy- http://tascam.com/product/dp-03/
Tascam stuff tends to be relatively easy to use so I suspect the menu scrolling would be minimal. Under $300 on ebay-
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=Tascam+DP-03&_sacat=0&_from=R40
Now I kinda want one.
bingo! digital tape= the worst of both world lol
speaking of menus. if you are doing editing you need the menus and screen.
to record, play, add effects, bounce tracks, mix down, etc, you hit buttons to set function on each channel, but it is like 1 button to choose rec/play/dupe/mute/solo w/e else. no menus.
my vs 880 was old enough to have a text mode LCD. fuck that. I sent tracks that needed wave editing to the PC via the spdif digital link , did my edits in like audacity or wavelab and re-recorded it back to a phantom track on the hd recorder. way easier wave editing on the big screen pc anyway.
summary: I don't like all that menu shit either. hit a coupel selectors and record and go booyah!
Quote from: liquidsmoke on December 02, 2012, 11:33:53 PM
I have zero experience with DATs but I wouldn't want to mess with anything digital with tapes. I'd save up a bit for this bad boy- http://tascam.com/product/dp-03/
Tascam stuff tends to be relatively easy to use so I suspect the menu scrolling would be minimal. Under $300 on ebay-
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=Tascam+DP-03&_sacat=0&_from=R40
Now I kinda want one.
I didn't see how many simultaneous tracks that 8channel tascam records in the specs. they only have 2 mic pre's..that usually tells me it records 2 tracks at once. be careful..that could be useless. the dp-24 records 8 at once, not 24. caveat emptor. that is key to what you can actually do with the recorder.
Yeah, looks like it's only 2. DP-24 for the win. A unit like that could be useful for decades so long as it kept working.
Older version?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tascam-2488neo-Digital-PortaStudio-MINT-LIKE-N-E-W-/190763842756?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Multi_Track_Recorders&hash=item2c6a693cc4
Quote from: liquidsmoke on December 03, 2012, 12:08:31 AM
Older version?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tascam-2488neo-Digital-PortaStudio-MINT-LIKE-N-E-W-/190763842756?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Multi_Track_Recorders&hash=item2c6a693cc4
exactly..that has the HD in it not memory cards..no big deal. you can swap drives like floppies too, just maybe have to pop the case
there is another one for $200 down lower on that page heh. 2488 model specs clearly says records 8 tracks at once.. so there you go
What the DP-03 replaced, even less expensive- http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=tascam+dp-02&_sacat=0&_from=R40
id still get the open box dp24 for $469 at my GC which I happened to see whilst toting 2 gretas around, but I ALWAYS drool on the multitracks anytime I go in there.
solid state,
all done with:
moving parts,
big current draw crap,
hard working power supplies.
this is just a fancy computer now using no power at all really
Don't know if you'd be into it, but I have a Roland VSR-880 hard disk recorder I'd let go for Jam Room price $100 + actual shipping USPS ConUS. Bought it off a friend with the intention of recording something live, but just never got around to it. We record to a computer, so I really don't need it. It will record 8 tracks simultaneously. Great condition, got the manual. It doesn't have preamps, so you'd have to run through a mixer first. It's this:
(http://studiobell.nanto-e.com/myfolder/066672.jpg)
I certainly understand though if you'd rather have something simpler. Just thought I'd throw it out there.
I'm not worried about edditing, this will be strictly record until we get it right then dump it to a CD. For FX I'm going to use outboard gear ran through the sends on my board
Quote from: lordfinesse on December 03, 2012, 12:41:07 AM
Don't know if you'd be into it, but I have a Roland VSR-880 hard disk recorder I'd let go for Jam Room price $100 + actual shipping USPS ConUS. Bought it off a friend with the intention of recording something live, but just never got around to it. We record to a computer, so I really don't need it. It will record 8 tracks simultaneously. Great condition, got the manual. It doesn't have preamps, so you'd have to run through a mixer first. It's this:
(http://studiobell.nanto-e.com/myfolder/066672.jpg)
I certainly understand though if you'd rather have something simpler. Just thought I'd throw it out there.
Wow this opens up a whole new world, I'm going to do some research on these. Thanks
that is way like an adat in function..8 tracks, no mixer. but no bullshit tapes, and you definitely can swap those drives by opening it up.
so how do you get 5 6 mics and 2 instruments into that vsr-880? 8 buss mixer?. or I am not sure. my little behringers are 2 buss mixers and I don't think I can use the effects, unless it is stereo send. anyway, it would take 2 of these 2 buss+stereo effects send mixers to feed that vsr-880 8 inputs
I had the vs-880..ex maybe..all the same family looks, but mine was 8 track, record 4 at once, full mixer.
edit: that pic gives a great look at the crap display. imagine editing with that display. thts why I was saying, for the occasional wave edit deal, I just did it on the pc, way faster. you can date it by the scsi port on the back
Quote from: jibberish on December 03, 2012, 08:36:55 AM
that is way like an adat in function..8 tracks, no mixer. but no bullshit tapes, and you definitely can swap those drives by opening it up.
so how do you get 5 6 mics and 2 instruments into that vsr-880? 8 buss mixer?. or I am not sure. my little behringers are 2 buss mixers and I don't think I can use the effects, unless it is stereo send. anyway, it would take 2 of these 2 buss+stereo effects send mixers to feed that vsr-880 8 inputs
I had the vs-880..ex maybe..all the same family looks, but mine was 8 track, record 4 at once, full mixer.
edit: that pic gives a great look at the crap display. imagine editing with that display. thts why I was saying, for the occasional wave edit deal, I just did it on the pc, way faster. you can date it by the scsi port on the back
No wave form editing for me. At least not when it comes to my music. I prefer to just play it over and over until I get it right. I've been looking at the console version of these too. pretty cool, but once again a lot of crazy ass tech shit too. I wish they made something like this but as simple as the old 4 track cassette porta studios.
Quote from: spookstrickland on December 03, 2012, 04:20:18 PMI wish they made something like this but as simple as the old 4 track cassette porta studios.
Seems like the industry has always been geared towards getting every musician to build their own home studio when it's almost pointless for me. Even if I had all the best studio gear playing music for so long means that my hearing and lack of hours in the studio means that another engineer will always be able to mix a better sounding track than I will.
Most bands should just have a black box that you can plug a bunch of mics into, have the box auto set the levels and then record everything onto a hard drive in a format that can be dropped right into Pro Tools.
Even if the tracks never make the final recording practice tracks can be perfect scratch tracks.
Laptop and M-Audio box are probably the best solution and most of those boxes come with Pro Tools LE or Ableton Live Lite or something similar.
Yeah I wouldn't even try to edit with that thing. I was just planning to record to that machine, then dump the tracks into Cubase (or whatever) and go from there. The drives can be swapped, and I've seen some on ebay, but I never got that far into it. I have an old Yamaha mixer with direct outs from the channels.. I had planned to use that. Oh well again
I think Being able to edit is one of the worst things that has ever happened to musicians. Sure it can be great in an emergency but too many people rely on it for a crutch. I just think if you can not not get through the song in 3 or 4 takes as a band then you either do not know the song well enough or you suck.
Quote from: spookstrickland on December 03, 2012, 04:20:18 PM
I wish they made something like this but as simple as the old 4 track cassette porta studios.
Kind of what Tascam still tries to do I believe. There are probably tons of how to/reviews on youtube you could check out to see how easy they are to use.
spook, I explained throughout a couple posts how I used my vs-880 with NO WAVE EDITING.
you keep going on about certain things and im showing you how multitracks can do what you want, simple like you want
please go to gc/sam ashe and play with one.
having the mixer and the recorder together is more convenient.
ok example of a recording. just like a mixer you plug in inputs,select source,test volumes right?
you know to use the mixer eq's,pan, frq cuts and sends. still the same
only extra thing you do is set the rec/play state of each channel to like record or mute or play heh
hit record...
now stop letting all the buttons scare you, you only use a small core set for everyday use. rec/play and turning channels on off is about it for most recording or mixdown
Quote from: jibberish on December 04, 2012, 05:31:22 AM
spook, I explained throughout a couple posts how I used my vs-880 with NO WAVE EDITING.
you keep going on about certain things and im showing you how multitracks can do what you want, simple like you want
please go to gc/sam ashe and play with one.
having the mixer and the recorder together is more convenient.
ok example of a recording. just like a mixer you plug in inputs,select source,test volumes right?
you know to use the mixer eq's,pan, frq cuts and sends. still the same
only extra thing you do is set the rec/play state of each channel to like record or mute or play heh
hit record...
now stop letting all the buttons scare you, you only use a small core set for everyday use. rec/play and turning channels on off is about it for most recording or mixdown
I wasn't ignoring what you were saying. You have brought some great stuff to my attention. I was just thinking how awesome it would be it they built a really simple multitracker for older dudes that cut their teeth on Analog.
I've looked at that new little tascam and it looks cool but I watched a demo on it and there was a ton of monkeying with the menues and what not not that I did not like. And the reviews on Amazon said the same thing. the 880 looks good though for the prices they are going for on ebay. I'm going to study them some more.
Thanks :)
heh, I know it gets hard expressing exactly what you are going after in threads sometimes. you should see my little amp thread. I have half the puzzle pieces, and it showed.
in this case, I have a yamaha 4 tracker cassette. that's what I started on. I had so much fun doing crazy things with the 2 tape speeds and flipping tapes over to run backwards. the 4 track just wrote on the 4 tracks in one direction.
that was a mixer+recorder. select inputs, choose whether each track is playing or recording...record..
so shuttling tape back and forth just sucks.when hd recorders came out with non linear recording, bye-bye tape shuttle bullshit
I rocked the hell out of my 880. it was my central mixer too. the power supply failed, cant find schematic...iwould still use it for its effects and digital I/o
using it was identical to the 4 tracker,except you could do more. I didn't do more, I used it like my 4 tracker.
you can ignore everything but the mixer section and the channel records,then it is same as 4 tracker
just remember: your true number of inputs recording at once is the true limits of the machine.. that adat, the vsr-880 recorder, the Tascam dp-24 can all record 8 tracks at once. some 16channel and almost all lower sized mixer recorders are 4 or 2, which leaves you way short for recording the band.
but go have a salesperson whip up a quick recording on one at a big box store. you will see the same mentality of 4 tracker will carry you just fine through all the multitrackers. just skip the crazy stuff for now.
damn,if my 880 worked, I could make videos all day showing you stuff. I so got my money's worth out of that little beast, but I hit the wall with only 4 tracks rcording and only 8 x8 tracks..really not enough to save like drum pieces and solo retakes and misc song pieces parts.
24x256 would work lol
Is there anything else in the range of the Roland 880 price and capability wise that I should be looking out for?
Zoom R16 will do 8 simultaneous. I got to play around with one last year, seemed very easy to use.
http://www.samsontech.com/zoom/products/multi-track-recorders/r16/
Otherwise, if you can find a deal on an old Alesis hard disk recorder, that would be the way to go. The HD24 does 24 tracks simultaneous, usually goes for 7-800 used but you see the occasional stupid cheap deal and they're only going to get cheaper as more folks move to DAW solutions.
I was working an event recently w/ 24 mics on stage, and the organizers of the event/concert wanted stems for all 24 mics. After hours of fucking around with pro tools trying to make it work (with a certified pro tools expert next to me), we gave up and pulled the old HD24 out of storage. Fired right up and worked flawlessly. We ended up with 3.45 hours of 24 separate tracks.
I realize it's probably way more than you want to spend. But do some reading about it, maybe there's something similar that would work for you.
Quote from: RnRJanitor on December 04, 2012, 06:28:34 PM
Zoom R16 will do 8 simultaneous. I got to play around with one last year, seemed very easy to use.
http://www.samsontech.com/zoom/products/multi-track-recorders/r16/
Nice. Looks like they are around $400 new.
I'd love one of those Zoom R16s.
Quote from: RnRJanitor on December 04, 2012, 06:28:34 PM
Zoom R16 will do 8 simultaneous. I got to play around with one last year, seemed very easy to use.
http://www.samsontech.com/zoom/products/multi-track-recorders/r16/
Otherwise, if you can find a deal on an old Alesis hard disk recorder, that would be the way to go. The HD24 does 24 tracks simultaneous, usually goes for 7-800 used but you see the occasional stupid cheap deal and they're only going to get cheaper as more folks move to DAW solutions.
I was working an event recently w/ 24 mics on stage, and the organizers of the event/concert wanted stems for all 24 mics. After hours of fucking around with pro tools trying to make it work (with a certified pro tools expert next to me), we gave up and pulled the old HD24 out of storage. Fired right up and worked flawlessly. We ended up with 3.45 hours of 24 separate tracks.
I realize it's probably way more than you want to spend. But do some reading about it, maybe there's something similar that would work for you.
Those Alesi hd24's are great, If I could afford it that would be the first on my list. I've gotten to use a few of them in the studio and they are amazingly simple and powerful all at the same time.
My brother has a Zoom R8. I haven't tried it myself, but he likes it. Even my 3 1/2 year old nephew can use it.
Quote from: RnRJanitor on December 04, 2012, 06:28:34 PM
Zoom R16 will do 8 simultaneous. I got to play around with one last year, seemed very easy to use.
http://www.samsontech.com/zoom/products/multi-track-recorders/r16/
Otherwise, if you can find a deal on an old Alesis hard disk recorder, that would be the way to go. The HD24 does 24 tracks simultaneous, usually goes for 7-800 used but you see the occasional stupid cheap deal and they're only going to get cheaper as more folks move to DAW solutions.
I was working an event recently w/ 24 mics on stage, and the organizers of the event/concert wanted stems for all 24 mics. After hours of fucking around with pro tools trying to make it work (with a certified pro tools expert next to me), we gave up and pulled the old HD24 out of storage. Fired right up and worked flawlessly. We ended up with 3.45 hours of 24 separate tracks.
I realize it's probably way more than you want to spend. But do some reading about it, maybe there's something similar that would work for you.
what a wonderful example of the true ability to just hook up, turn the thing on and do your shit. dedicated machine for a dedicated purpose..
I think you are on the right track [bada bum tshhhhhh!][canned laughter]
now shop till you score. alesis has been in the thick of this since the adat days, great company. Yamaha and roland have also been in the thick of it since day 1. I heartily recommend any of those 3 brands used. korg, Tascam, I guess zoom has been around enough to have some resale cred.
holy crap dp-24 $459 new
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/841544-REG/Tascam_DP_24_DP_24_24_Track_Digital_Portastudio.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/841544-REG/Tascam_DP_24_DP_24_24_Track_Digital_Portastudio.html)
Quote from: jibberish on December 05, 2012, 09:54:56 AM
holy crap dp-24 $459 new
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/841544-REG/Tascam_DP_24_DP_24_24_Track_Digital_Portastudio.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/841544-REG/Tascam_DP_24_DP_24_24_Track_Digital_Portastudio.html)
Want.... must.. buy.. new.. amp.. and.. cab.. though..
Old thread but fuck it.
We are tracking everything on my Tascam DP-008EX. No latency.
It has a metronome but we started by recording a track of metronome from my iPhone for each song. Next I layered two tracks of rhythm guitar followed by a track of leads. Then a track of vocals, a track of bass, and finally we are now working on drums using a condenser overhead and a dynamic for the kick each on it's own track. All of these tracks will be put into Protools for minimal fixes, EQing, mixing, and mastering.
Today while tracking drums the unit stopped and gave us an error message which we believe is because of a corrupted SDHC card. It's said that some of them are crappy and we are going to switch to something from Tascam's tested and recommended list by SanDisk, Panasonic, or Lexar.
Otherwise the only problem we've had is buzzy hum from my bass and guitar rigs that I could not get rid of. We should be able to eliminate that in Protools from the guitar tracks. The bass is raw(direct) and will be digitally amped. It was recorded while using batteries in the Tascam to eliminate noise. My outlets test good but the signals are dirty no matter what. Tried the same outlet for everything connected, lights off, doesn't help.
when the true earth ground gets further and further away from where you are using the juice, the chance for the common/ground floating from true "0" gets greater as the circuit back to ground is getting complex and bigger. this becomes its own little 60Hz AC voltage
also, you can pick up 60Hz garbage as RFI. motors are the worst for generating RFI(radio freq interference) so sometimes a fucked up fridge motor can spike up the mains power with rf crap. or huge draws like ac units induce 60Hz hum right into the air as an electric field. it is a jungle out there....
Is there any type of device I could plug everything into when I record to avoid this? Relying on Xnoise in Protools to clean up tracks is lame.
maybe a UPS. those have battery backup and a bunch of filtering. I would imagine you could go hard core and unplug the ups from the wall like a power outage then record from battery power if all else fails when using the ups normally.
also do a physical look-see of your general recording area. if you go outside and notice that greater Madison's main power high tension lines go by 1/4 mile away, or the building next door has a giant air conditioner on the roof, or you have a bunch of ac stuff running, you may be screwed.