We used to tune to C but since we're playing on better gear at rehearsal (read: louder) in about the same small space, we have trouble getting the same clarity we used to have so we tried standard for once, the sound was clearer but I liked the sound we had. Can this be due the increase in volume in a small space so the sound just bounces around or is it the amp (which is a bit noisey but that much)? And how can we fix this?
Quote from: MichaelZodiac on November 29, 2012, 10:30:31 AM
We used to tune to C but since we're playing on better gear at rehearsal (read: louder) in about the same small space, we have trouble getting the same clarity we used to have so we tried standard for once, the sound was clearer but I liked the sound we had. Can this be due the increase in volume in a small space so the sound just bounces around or is it the amp (which is a bit noisey but that much)? And how can we fix this?
by tuning down you are changing the midrange (and high/low range) of your instrument. it is clearer because tuned to C you had a bunch of low mid buildup (usually referred to as mud in a negative manner).
My opinion is that it's an unnecessary default for heavy music. If you're doing it for a particular reason and just can't achieve the sound you want at standard tuning then so be it. But to tune down just because that's what's typical for the genre just increases the chances you'll sound the same as everyone else. Not to mention that most guitar designs are presumably optimized for a standard tuning. This is not to say you can't pull it off, I just think some thought should be given to the decision because you are right, clarity is gained at standard tuning. Also, cut back the gain on your amp and that will help a lot as well. It won't sound as full when you play by yourself, but it will be cool with the band. I'm speaking in general terms of course because I've never heard you guys. But most bands I see use far too much gain and it ends up sounding like a wall of noise with no clarity.
Main thing is have the bass covered by the bass, and cut bass from guitars.
You could also try C#, we found that half step up brings in a lot of clarity. We also have quite a thin guitar sound so the bass gives the riffs a lot of the meat without getting too muddy.
Thicker strings?
Yeah, I think you boys took a BIG step (2 full steps, actually) here. Why not try C#, D, or drop D. Eb is a solid tuning, too, depending upon the application.
I don't have any problem with clarity using baritone tuning, but I do use heavier gauge strings and make sure everything has a proper setup. Also, it's important to remember that more gain and more low end eq doesn't necessarily equal heavier tone. So when I'm writing music that's downtuned I typically use less gain and cut more very low frequencies, to keep things sounding tight and clear.
Quote from: AgentofOblivion on November 29, 2012, 10:56:42 AMBut most bands I see use far too much gain and it ends up sounding like a wall of noise with no clarity.
Applauded.
Great thread.
As a bass player I ended up paying more attention to my mid frequencies and cut. I use a lot of mids and a jazz bass to really attack. I still get solid low end, but it allows my guitarist to keep his lows and assloads of gain without it being muddy. It's all in how the instruments compliment each other tonally. Adjust your tone knobs during practice and not individually. What sounds the best with everyone else playing and not what sounds the best by yourself.
A lot of folks boost bass & tuning to C while boosting bass is a bad combo IMO. I've found that keeping things relatively flat when tuning down & maybe boosting mids helps for clarity a lot... At least for bass. I've also found that I need different settings and/or amps/cabs for different guitar rigs. A V4 occupies a different space than a Marshall which is different than a Dual Rec & I need to EQ things to fit in that space.
That's why I really like my Musket fuzz. We're playing in drop-c and still what a quite clean and tight sound but not a sort of metal tight sound. Since I can controll the bottom end with the fuzz pedal there's stilll quite a lot of room for the bass drum and the bass. It hard down there lol... And at least what we have learned is that it's better to have a great overall sound that everyones fighting for the space. And luckily I'm the only gutiarist. But still you have to compromize.
BUT we do have a 100db maximum level at the gig places here in Sweden so you need to work on your sound a bit extra because of that as well.
For me the downtuning ad another texture to is than planing in regular tuning. So stick to it if that's want you want to do.
A lot of great suggestions in the topic as well!
This is why I like my Strat so much for tunning down. Strats are naturally bright but once you tune them down they sound just right. I like em in the D432 range but have gone as low as Drop A432 and it still sounded great and clear.
One thing to consider is that there is no rule in music that says everyone in the band has to tune down to the same drop tuning.
Two guitars tuned one or two steps apart or one in a drop tuning with another in a lower standard tuning can sound awesome and forces you not to play all unison parts or every song in the key of your lowest string.
I also like it when the bass is tuned a step up from the guitar which means that the bass has to play an octave up in unison on the lowest chord but is down in a lower octave as soon as you hit a chord second fret or above.
Quote from: Andrew Blakk on November 30, 2012, 06:26:22 AM
BUT we do have a 100db maximum level at the gig places here in Sweden so you need to work on your sound a bit extra because of that as well.
Aren't hard rock and metal drums usually way above 100db? Or it is a distance from the stage thing?
Quote from: fallen on December 01, 2012, 04:47:07 PM
One thing to consider is that there is no rule in music that says everyone in the band has to tune down to the same drop tuning.
Two guitars tuned one or two steps apart or one in a drop tuning with another in a lower standard tuning can sound awesome and forces you not to play all unison parts or every song in the key of your lowest string.
I also like it when the bass is tuned a step up from the guitar which means that the bass has to play an octave up in unison on the lowest chord but is down in a lower octave as soon as you hit a chord second fret or above.
I've noticed Weedeater do this sometimes, and I think they switch off. Last clip I saw, Dixie was in drop D but Shep was in standard D.
I'm playing in drop A so the bass player can just treat his A string like he would his E in regular tuning. bass player is old school and doesnt drop tune. I dont think the bassist in my old band drop tuned either., could be wrong.
In standard tuning, you can get a drop tuning-esque sound by playing a power chord like shape but using four strings, instead of two.
This works best on the lower frets with thick distortion, but you can move it around.
example: G chord at third fret: bar top two strings(e&a) with index, third finger and pinky on strings 3(d) and 4(g) at fret 5.
I dig that'n, Choves, or if playing a C chord on the third fret and leaving the low "G" fretted on the fat string (bar chord...D on fifth fret w/ A note on fat string, etc.)
I use C std just because I love how my geetar sounds in that range. Swithcing to P90s and using heavy strings for higher tension really helped me out a lot, and as stated, not dialing gobs of bass into your tone.
answer: DOWNTUNE!!! ;D
it is the best! I always downtune to c# like Iommi
You can be heavy without down tuning. Akimbo uses E standard I believe.
This is E so don't get me started on people who think you have to do it to be heavy.
Quote from: Metal and Beer on December 01, 2012, 08:31:40 PM
I dig that'n, Choves, or if playing a C chord on the third fret and leaving the low "G" fretted on the fat string (bar chord...D on fifth fret w/ A note on fat string, etc.)
exactly.
Quote from: mutantcolors on December 02, 2012, 12:04:51 AM
This is E so don't get me started on people who think you have to do it to be heavy.
Truth. However I myself find it easier to sound heavy if I tune lower. Part of it is the extra low range, part of it is the thicker strings, part of it is the extra lows and low mids, part of it is magic :o
Quotepart of it is magic
No, it's not. Magical thinking is a poor tool to use when making musical decisions.
Magic is everywhere, maaaan.
We don't really downtune. A few songs are in dropped D, but that's it. It mainly has to do with getting more out of the key for the songs we're in than getting low down.
One song LordFinesse tunes up a half step for some reason. He explained this to one of our local buddies, and his response was ... " wait, you tune .....up?
Again, that's all about gaining access to certain notes as he's a bit of a chord hound. His style is very much soloist only with chords rather than tweedling.
^^I remember the first time this dawned on me about 20 years ago. I was in the process of writing a song in f and i wanted a lower open note to ring out while i was picking other strings so I thought fuck it I'll tune up my E string. Derp. main reason I tune down is to accommodate my vocal range. ;)
^^ same here. vocal range.
I also like the extra snarl I get from tuning down a step. On the other hand, there are times I miss the bite of standard tuning.
New trend.
I play 7s and uptune to high A standard or up B.
I don't know if tuning up is good idea. The extra tension could very well fuck up your guitar.
Uptuning is the new downtuning.
Quote from: eyeprod on December 03, 2012, 12:52:58 AM
I don't know if tuning up is good idea. The extra tension could very well fuck up your guitar.
No more that going to a heavier gauge in standard. More string breakage is the main downside, since they are put on teh wrong side of their design limitations. Whenever you change tuning or gauge setup should be adjusted accordingly.
I only know how to play in standard tuning... :'(
Quote from: The Bandit on December 03, 2012, 10:43:41 AM
I only know how to play in standard tuning... :'(
you should give some other tunings a try.
Put on a Sonic Youth album and go nuts (I only play guitar in standard tuning too, and really badly).
On a serious note I almost always use alternate tunings that leave the top 4 strings untouched for lead purposes but there are some real good ideas that can come from the idea of tuning higher strings standard or up and then drop tuning lower strings to put a much larger spectrum of notes available within 2 or 3 fret chord shapes.
The place I've been trying this idea is on lap steel where I will drop an 8 string tuning onto a 6 string, just skipping some of the duplicate notes. The same thing could be done transposing a tuning from an 8 string guitar that would be tuned down to drop E up to E. On an 8 it would look like E - B - E - A - D - G - B - E. Transposed to a 6 it could be E - B - A - D - B - E and then transposed up to use smaller strings if you don't want a 100 gauge string on the bass E. Something like A - E - D - G - E - A, starting from a .62 or bigger string on the low A up to a 7 on the high A.
The chords you could get out of a crazy tuning like that could be really nice. Might try that on one of my guitars once I can pick up a light enough string for the high A.
I actually would like to get a 3/4 scale guitar tune it to an octave above a regular guitar and do some cool octave unison solos.
I once had a band that played in drop e flat, which involved tuning up and down at the same time. I have no idea why the hell why we decided to do this.
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on December 03, 2012, 09:50:19 AM
Quote from: eyeprod on December 03, 2012, 12:52:58 AM
I don't know if tuning up is good idea. The extra tension could very well fuck up your guitar.
No more that going to a heavier gauge in standard. More string breakage is the main downside, since they are put on teh wrong side of their design limitations. Whenever you change tuning or gauge setup should be adjusted accordingly.
Hmm, I'm not sure about that. A guitar is designed to handle a certain range of tension. Running heavier gauge strings is a totally different thing than tuning up to A standard (which sounds completely retarded imo). The slight adjustments I make to my guitars when I downtune is based strictly on intonation. There is no need for anything more than a turn of a screw at the bridge.
You tune the thing up to something extreme and there will be much more that needs to happen than running 7's and adjusting intonation. You'll be stressing the neck and twisting the fuck out of that truss rod to compensate. Bad idea. Why is it suggested that you detune your strings when storing a guitar? To relieve stress on the neck.
Anyway, why would anyone follow a trend on guitar? The tried and true is where it's at, and I thought this board was all about that. pfft, A standard. ??? WHY?
Thin strings and a truss rod adjustment if it needs it
Quote from: eyeprod on December 03, 2012, 10:00:49 PM
Hmm, I'm not sure about that. A guitar is designed to handle a certain range of tension. Running heavier gauge strings is a totally different thing than tuning up to A standard (which sounds completely retarded imo). The slight adjustments I make to my guitars when I downtune is based strictly on intonation. There is no need for anything more than a turn of a screw at the bridge.
You tune the thing up to something extreme and there will be much more that needs to happen than running 7's and adjusting intonation. You'll be stressing the neck and twisting the fuck out of that truss rod to compensate. Bad idea. Why is it suggested that you detune your strings when storing a guitar? To relieve stress on the neck.
Anyway, why would anyone follow a trend on guitar? The tried and true is where it's at, and I thought this board was all about that. pfft, A standard. ??? WHY?
If your guitar breaks before your strings, the guitar was broken or shit to start with, ditto with the truss rod not having a large enough range of adjustment. The design tolerances of a guitar aren't nearly fine enough that it was designed for a specific range. When Fender set the standards, heavier strings were in general use too, by today's standards. Suggesting people slacken their strings when storing guitars is pretty much easier than suggesting people not buy such shitty guitars. When shipping them, it might be a useful tip.
My band uses the whole dropped C tuning, and we have songs with the bottom string dropped to A, while everything else stays in dropped C. If you don't have your guitar set up right, and use a heavier gauge string, shit can sound really bad. I like the lower tuning for my vocal range, and it sounds sweet if you are properly set up too.
I echo a lot of the sentiment here though, heavy is heavy, regardless of tuning.
Quote from: spookstrickland on December 03, 2012, 07:31:33 PM
I actually would like to get a 3/4 scale guitar tune it to an octave above a regular guitar and do some cool octave unison solos.
uptuning already exists. Its called the nashville tuning. Top four string are an octave higher than normal, other two (thinest) strings are normal. Used mainly in the studio on acoustic guitars.
Theres not much to relearn to play in downtuning...just bar instead of powerchord and avoid that low e string when soloing.
(Ill usually track solos in standard tuning, even over downtuned songs for that reason). every guitarist should be able to play in downtuned mode without too much adjustment...
Other than that and standard I would highly suggest giving open G a try. alot of stones and zeppelin will make much more sense.
Thats a really fun tuning. I could play "Start Me Up" all day long. ;)
Devin Townsend plays in open B and he aint exactly a guitar slouch.
Quote from: Chovie D on December 04, 2012, 05:07:04 PM
Quote from: spookstrickland on December 03, 2012, 07:31:33 PM
I actually would like to get a 3/4 scale guitar tune it to an octave above a regular guitar and do some cool octave unison solos.
uptuning already exists. Its called the nashville tuning. Top four string are an octave higher than normal, other two (thinest) strings are normal. Used mainly in the studio on acoustic guitars.
Theres not much to relearn to play in downtuning...just bar instead of powerchord and avoid that low e string when soloing.
(Ill usually track solos in standard tuning, even over downtuned songs for that reason). every guitarist should be able to play in downtuned mode without too much adjustment...
Other than that and standard I would highly suggest giving open G a try. alot of stones and zeppelin will make much more sense.
Thats a really fun tuning. I could play "Start Me Up" all day long. ;)
yes sir, first heard of that tuning when learning alice in chains "stay away", nifty indeed!
Clarity, especially in multiple guitar bands is often a frequency problem. True, thicker strings are a good help, and help maintain the feel of your instrument (similar tension to standard tuning). I always have an eq of some kind on my board. Try cutting out 200hz and 400hz on the guitars and removing EVERYTHING below 100hz. That'll open up the frequency spectrum for your drummer's kick and for the bass guitar.