Gentlemen! My name's Morgan and I just came across this new SR board. I used to be really active on the original SR Jam Room board until it met its demise. I've cooled off on gear hoarding/experimentation for a years and now it looks like I'm getting back into playing heavy stuff again.
So here's a question: I've whittled my collection down to my bulletproof '72 Orange OR120. It's looking like I might be playing bass in a new band and want to utilize this amp, though it's traditionally regarded as more of a guitar amp. Here's my scenario: we all know that amps like these have a "sweet spot" of natural breakup. Since this is more of a guitar amp, my concern is achieving enough volume to have the bass be adequately present (yes, the band is loud). If necessary, I may find that sweet spot in sound an slave it out to a solid state bass amp to push the volume up.
Here's my question: without breaking the cardinal rule of never running a tube amp without being connected to a cabinet, will I have to run a separate cab from the Orange and one from the SS amp, or is there some kind of load shed device I could run out of the Orange's speaker output, just so it doesn't...yano, blow up.
P.S. I look forward to trading/buying/selling gear with all of you, learning from you, and maybe even being able to teach a thing or two!
There are power soaks that can handle your Orange...simply run your amp into that and then into the solid state power amp and you'll get a great sounding, quieter amp. You'll lose some of the tone that comes at higher spl's and when pushing speakers but it'll be better than your amp on 1 or going straight solid state. Pete Thorn has a good YouTube video on it.
P.S. Never sell that Orange...a good one is a keeper for life.
To be honest, this is all in the interest of pushing it louder (though that's a perfect point about being able to get the same tone, quieter).
I couldn't sell the Orange. And I've had offers. Everyone always talks about "the quest" and I went through so many amps before landing on this Orange, and I'll be buried with it. She's a little tattered on the outside, but I picked her up for a cool grand, and besides a Peavey Butcher this has been the best work horse I've ever owned. I've dropped it; been shaken off of cabinets; even a family of mice built a home inside it while left out for 4 months - she's never failed to turn on.
Loudness is determined by the cabinet. So concentrate there. A Barefaced Super 15 is fairly expensive, but is as sensitive as two of the current Ampeg 8x10s at once, and goes lower, so that's what I do to get my 140w bass head to gig volume.
Parts Express sell 50W and 100W load resistors in 4 & 8 ohm for this kind of thing.
http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?srchExt=CAT&srchCat=340&CFID=9137928&CFTOKEN=12336352 (http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?srchExt=CAT&srchCat=340&CFID=9137928&CFTOKEN=12336352)
As a newcomer, you could have used the search function, and found this topic has already been covered before. The sticky policy is to sticky topics that would be on top anyways, so you'll have to search.
Summarising, if you're using an Orange and taking the signal from the Echo Out, which is the only line out they have, that signal is taken from the preamp, so the easiest and cheapest thing to do is just to remove your power tubes (number them first, so you can put them back in the same place) and then you can run your amp no problems, with no need for a load.
That said, I'm using 100W tube amp for practice (I'm bass), pushing a single Peavey 2x15 wired for 16 ohms, loaded with Black Widows and it's loud enough, I run a line out through an old Yamaha solid state amp, to a single 18" for extra bass, but I've not bothered to take that out of my practice space, just the 100W and the 2x15. I could hook up my other 2x15 to the 100W and it would probably toast me.
If you want to dump your amp into a resistive load your going to need over 100W for a safe margin. If you begin to heat up the resistor it will derate at higher temperatures. Along with the fact that amps can often output RMS power over their rated output, 100W is cutting it close on a nominally rated 100W amp. id recommend something like 200W.
Pulling all of the power tubes will eliminate the output and will not need a load to dump into. The only possible issue with this is that your supply voltages will rise because your running the PT secondary in an almost no load situation since the preamp pulls very little current. The only problem with this is that your caps will be experiencing larger than normal voltage on them and this is often problematic for either caps only rated for the working voltage of the amp (ie when power tubes are in and properly biased) or for older caps where electrolytics get used to operating at a particular voltage and if they after a long time are expected to run at a larger voltage, will prematurely die. However, these are most likely secondary concerns and you should be okay.
Mr. Foxen's suggestion was good (more efficient cabinets = louder) but I would also add "more cabinets" (as many as your amp can handle). Besides efficiency, the more speakers the better.
There are many ways to skin a cat (get great tone). Slaving a 2nd solid state amp, and using a power soak (etc) seems like an expensive and complicated way to get there. Is anybody actually doing this in the real world (garage players and kooks excluded)? I've never noticed it in real life. Why? Extra expenses. Extra stuff to carry. Unnecessary. Silly use of an Orange amp. You're going to lug a 60 pound, vintage, 2000 dollar amp around, just so you can use the preamp section?
This surely cannot be the only way you can get a bass sound you like (the Orange head) but if it is, it's a pity. I would try Mr. Foxen's suggestion, or run a 2nd amp/cab (maybe clean/dirty), or just buy the head that can accomplish what you want. Maybe a power amp/preamp rack setup, if you need excessive power. You need to look around more at other options.
Matt Pike used to do it, George Rice I think used a 4x12 and a Marshall and a Matamp and a 4x15 or something.
It is done. Whether it should be done, hmm ;D
I wouldnt want to risk such a sweet amp.
Run the OR120 to one cab, run slave out of the Orange to next amp and 2nd cab.
If you only have one cabinet, run the Orange, until you can afford the other stuff.
Yeah it was just an idea. I had heard that was one of Al Cisneros' tricks. I always love experimenting with new ways to manipulate stuff.
More than likely I'll go back to what I used to do for guitar and just get two cabs and split the signal to two amps. I've always liked the ability to blend tone that way.
Best getting a PA power amp or SS bass head to do the dual amp thing, use that for bottom into a suitable subby cab, and use the Orange for colour and tone.
Quote from: morgantician on August 13, 2012, 12:01:03 AM
Yeah it was just an idea. I had heard that was one of Al Cisneros' tricks. I always love experimenting with new ways to manipulate stuff.
More than likely I'll go back to what I used to do for guitar and just get two cabs and split the signal to two amps. I've always liked the ability to blend tone that way.
Al uses a guitar full stack for his high end and shit...
With Om & Sleep he did use 2 412s but the amp on it was a small SS head which looked like a GK actually.
Quote from: MichaelZodiac on August 13, 2012, 09:41:18 AM
With Om & Sleep he did use 2 412s but the amp on it was a small SS head which looked like a GK actually.
That was for Europe, in the States it's normally a guitar head but his rig seems to change with every tour.
I would recommend a post power amp slave out box you can build one urself, fairly simple.
Al is endorsed by Ampeg now for the tour support. Pretty lame, but makes the logistics loads easier as he can tap them up for a rig for each leg of a tour.
let's see if i have this straight:
OP wants MORE VOLUME
people suggest burning power into load resistors
load resistors dont make much noise.
a pre-amp tap/ signal splitter is what the correct idea would be.
also maybe just using a 500w ss amp and not use the orange may be easier, and possibly cheaper
I read it as using power soaks and load resistors to absorb the Orange's output while using the amp's signal-out into another more powerful power amplifier. Although, I may be wrong (as is often the case).
My mildly useless and unimaginative 4¢ would be to:
• Marry the Orange as is to a louder, more efficient bass cabinet – agreeing with a previous post
OR
• Use the Orange (into whatever cab) for "color" and utilize a separate bass rig for the "ooomph" – agreeing with another previous post
If it were me, I'd try the former. If it's not working, you're already halfway to the latter!
if pulling the signal pre-phase inverter will not give best results. Part of the Orange and Matamp sound is crushing on that phase inverter which is why a post power amp slave it a better idea. I would just run a small signal off the output into a large SS thing if you want large power. Utilize the amp sound 2
Quote from: dunwichamps on August 13, 2012, 03:01:44 PM
if pulling the signal pre-phase inverter will not give best results. Part of the Orange and Matamp sound is crushing on that phase inverter which is why a post power amp slave it a better idea. I would just run a small signal off the output into a large SS thing if you want large power. Utilize the amp sound 2
just how subtle will this orange sound influence bass buried in the band really be? and will it be needed or even actually detected?
idk, seems like for this, sheer volume and a tight amp is probably more important than a boutique guitar tone.
Quote from: jibberish on August 14, 2012, 01:08:44 AM
Quote from: dunwichamps on August 13, 2012, 03:01:44 PM
if pulling the signal pre-phase inverter will not give best results. Part of the Orange and Matamp sound is crushing on that phase inverter which is why a post power amp slave it a better idea. I would just run a small signal off the output into a large SS thing if you want large power. Utilize the amp sound 2
just how subtle will this orange sound influence bass buried in the band really be? and will it be needed or even actually detected?
idk, seems like for this, sheer volume and a tight amp is probably more important than a boutique guitar tone.
Are you a bassplayer?
I have never heard of a guitarist giving consideration to how his tone sits in the mix before, hence me asking ;)
This chap is a guitarist playing bass, which would answer your question.
Then again, as a bassplayer, I guess it depends on the band situation, especially in trio's that play slow stuff, the bass actually does more than just octave support a rhythm guitar, in a faster style like punk, just use anything that makes noise.
Though I've also found the bass itself is an important variable, my basses can sound hugely different, played through the same setups. Some bass/amp combinations just never sound right to me.
i think you actually layed out the constraints regarding the consideration of what i was asking. Now i suppose victor wooten would kick my ass for saying what i said, but you also said the other end of the discussion: certain bands do just need the bass note played and adequate volume and that's it.
I.played around at one.time. with doing what Jake mentioned, run the Orange to say a 4x10 and rub the bass SA head to a 15 for your low end, the combination should give you plenty of tone,grit and volume
Quote from: jibberish on August 15, 2012, 01:37:03 AM
i think you actually layed out the constraints regarding the consideration of what i was asking. Now i suppose victor wooten would kick my ass for saying what i said, but you also said the other end of the discussion: certain bands do just need the bass note played and adequate volume and that's it.
To heck with Victor Wooten, do you ever notice how so many instrument gods, not just bass gods, but guitar gods as well, play unlistenable jazzy, noodly crap, and nobody outside players of the same instrument listen to them.
I'd rather be Cliff Williams than Victor Wooten, anyday. He gets it, he's part of a band.
Apologies to the fans of the jazzy, noodly crap, I'm going off to listen to Om ;)
Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 15, 2012, 10:44:14 AM
Quote from: jibberish on August 15, 2012, 01:37:03 AM
i think you actually layed out the constraints regarding the consideration of what i was asking. Now i suppose victor wooten would kick my ass for saying what i said, but you also said the other end of the discussion: certain bands do just need the bass note played and adequate volume and that's it.
To heck with Victor Wooten, do you ever notice how so many instrument gods, not just bass gods, but guitar gods as well, play unlistenable jazzy, noodly crap, and nobody outside players of the same instrument listen to them.
I'd rather be Cliff Williams than Victor Wooten, anyday. He gets it, he's part of a band.
Apologies to the fans of the jazzy, noodly crap, I'm going off to listen to Om ;)
Would that be the new noodly, jazzy Om?
Quote from: moose23 on August 15, 2012, 11:12:54 AM
Would that be the new noodly, jazzy Om?
Ah, you got that ;D
It's a pretty interesting departure, and from what I've seen on the YouTube it looks more interesting live, when mixed in with some of their old stuff, than it is on disk. He's mining the same vein Jah Wobble did 20 years ago, and his bass sound is now quite similar as well, more of an insistent rumble in the background, than a brash fuzzy lead, maybe he got tired of being the frontman so much and wanted to play at being '
bassplayer' again.
I'm hoping the re-scheduled North American tour might include a date closer than Chicago this time.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 15, 2012, 04:04:08 PM
Quote from: moose23 on August 15, 2012, 11:12:54 AM
Would that be the new noodly, jazzy Om?
Ah, you got that ;D
It's a pretty interesting departure, and from what I've seen on the YouTube it looks more interesting live, when mixed in with some of their old stuff, than it is on disk. He's mining the same vein Jah Wobble did 20 years ago, and his bass sound is now quite similar as well, more of an insistent rumble in the background, than a brash fuzzy lead, maybe he got tired of being the frontman so much and wanted to play at being 'bassplayer' again.
I'm hoping the re-scheduled North American tour might include a date closer than Chicago this time.
That is another one my mate did sound for (basically all of Europe), the rumbling might be to do with all Ampeg backline, which wasn't ideal, I think the 8x10s were the ones with the dark speakers. Plus I think my mate likes bass to sound like that (he's a bassist), I found his favourite cabs to be dark with no definition, but he loves them.
I really like the new stuff, works great live too, seen them in April and again on the 27th of September.
Scottish and Donegal humour is very similar.. ;)
Well Ireland is just the overflow from when the Romans pushed us all north.
Foxen: I assumed the rumbling was just an overloaded mic on the recording device, if you ever overloaded a tiny condenser mic with bass, that's the kind of sound you get ;D
Was sort of compensating for that. Meant more in terms of the bass sounding more like bass and less toward the guitar end, not much attack to it, finger noise and clank is out.
The rumbling definitely was present at their last Euro tour, happening more with the fuzz-less pieces btw. It sounded good though but unless he kicked in that fuzz pedal it was good but not awesome if you know what I mean. I remember standing upfront and the moment he kicked in his pedal the guy beside me took a few steps backwards.
I think on the last record it's the perfect combination of more fuzz-less bass riffs in a supportive role and full on fuzzy bass riffs demanding the attention of the listener.
Jah Wobble did it already, 20 years ago ;D
Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 15, 2012, 09:02:15 PM
Jah Wobble did it already, 20 years ago ;D
He also had John Lydon ranting about Hollywood over it,..
No I was meaning Invaders of the Heart not PIL so he had Sinead O'Connor ranting over it instead. It's a definite departure for Om, but I can't see it going anyplace else, be interesting to see if it does. To keep it relevant to the thread, here's Al's main amp and slave units.
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/5739/om2hf1.jpg)
Electric's come with a Slave Out, Nick could probably let you see the circuitry.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 16, 2012, 08:23:28 AM
No I was meaning Invaders of the Heart not PIL so he had Sinead O'Connor ranting over it instead. It's a definite departure for Om, but I can't see it going anyplace else, be interesting to see if it does. To keep it relevant to the thread, here's Al's main amp and slave units.
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/5739/om2hf1.jpg)
Electric's come with a Slave Out, Nick could probably let you see the circuitry.
Give me Al over Sinead
or John anyday.
One could always just run a Sansamp Oxford into a SS power amp and solve all the problems here although I think the Orange alone is capable of doing what's needed without worrying about an extra power amp..
Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 16, 2012, 08:23:28 AM
Electric's come with a Slave Out, Nick could probably let you see the circuitry.
it is a post power amp slave off an OT tap using a resistive divider.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 16, 2012, 08:23:28 AM
No I was meaning Invaders of the Heart not PIL so he had Sinead O'Connor ranting over it instead. It's a definite departure for Om, but I can't see it going anyplace else, be interesting to see if it does. To keep it relevant to the thread, here's Al's main amp and slave units.
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/5739/om2hf1.jpg)
Electric's come with a Slave Out, Nick could probably let you see the circuitry.
He has sold the green cabs. dunno about the amps, but he was recording with Laney stuff. Not sure what was used on the last album though.
Last I heard he was thinking his tone into the mix. Harder to accomplish live than in the studio. Tough to maintain endorsements as well.
;)
Quote from: Pissy on August 16, 2012, 10:43:47 AM
Last I heard he was thinking his tone into the mix. Harder to accomplish live than in the studio. Tough to maintain endorsements as well.
;)
I'm gonna need that one explained?
Foxen you sure he just didn't have them in Europe, I can't see him doing that. I also don't see him listed as an Ampeg endorser, maybe he went like Geezer and is endorsing Hartke, after the shitstorm surrounding the new Ampeg gear, I wouldn't be atall surprised ;D
Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 16, 2012, 01:49:09 PM
Quote from: Pissy on August 16, 2012, 10:43:47 AM
Last I heard he was thinking his tone into the mix. Harder to accomplish live than in the studio. Tough to maintain endorsements as well.
;)
I'm gonna need that one explained?
Foxen you sure he just didn't have them in Europe, I can't see him doing that. I also don't see him listed as an Ampeg endorser, maybe he went like Geezer and is endorsing Hartke, after the shitstorm surrounding the new Ampeg gear, I wouldn't be atall surprised ;D
Still have the text from the sound guy touring with them saved on my phone, because Om asking me for sound advice is cool:
QuoteAl has an all Ampeg rig at home now, endorsed by them. 2x SVT VR, 2x 2x15. sold the Green rig.[Bunch of nerdy stuff about 8x10s vs 2x15s for the tour]
Guess we'll wait and see then, truth will out and all that.
http://www.ampeg.com/artists/ (http://www.ampeg.com/artists/)
Quotetruth will out and all that.
Are you suggesting Al is gay?
Ampeg is pretty gay.
I know we all like to have something a little different than the other guy. It's fun to use stuff that's obscure, unique, and often times vintage. Kind of sets us apart from the Mr. Vanilla, happy-with-whatever-off-the-shelf, Joe Schmoe.
That being said, an Ampeg SVT and 8x10 are absolutely part of the bedrock of rock & roll and unfuckwithable.
Agreed.
But what about the new Ampegs? Our old bassist had an SVT Pro for a minute before blowing it up. Sounded just okay, quality seemed dodgy.
certainly the vintage SVT units are grail-esque. They have a great design but not the best build layouts.
I hate the cabs, and I dislike they way the heads are built strongly. Plus they are total cunts to deal with if you are trying to fix one.
Quote from: dunwichamps on August 16, 2012, 05:02:29 PM
certainly the vintage SVT units are grail-esque. They have a great design but not the best build layouts.
Just said almost exact same thing last week, good sounding circuit, terribly built.
Quote from: Jake on August 16, 2012, 04:31:52 PM
I know we all like to have something a little different than the other guy. It's fun to use stuff that's obscure, unique, and often times vintage. Kind of sets us apart from the Mr. Vanilla, happy-with-whatever-off-the-shelf, Joe Schmoe.
That being said, an Ampeg SVT and 8x10 are absolutely part of the bedrock of rock & roll and unfuckwithable.
Bedrock since when? Everyone I see that was relevant played Sunn, Laney, Orange, HiWatt and Marshall, like Lemmy says
you can get rid of that Ampeg shit for a start :)
I like vanilla, people do amazing things with vanilla, I don't like overpriced vanilla that lives on it's badge reputation, Marshall and Ampeg are huge offenders in this area.
And wow we went off-topic.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 16, 2012, 08:30:13 PM
Quote from: dunwichamps on August 16, 2012, 05:02:29 PM
certainly the vintage SVT units are grail-esque. They have a great design but not the best build layouts.
Just said almost exact same thing last week, good sounding circuit, terribly built.
the midrange control is praise worthy IMO, the SVTs phase inverter also designed very nicely. but wtf where they thinking in that unit and the V4s derrrrrp
I dislike PCB mounted tubes, I dislike ribbon cable connected boards, and I dislike multi PCB units, SVT qualifies on all 3 ;D