I'd been using a full stack for a really long time and at the last gig, I lost my speaker cables and could only find one in the studio, so I just used one cab and I think it sounded a lot better, or was it just my imagination?
Quote from: Dr.Zayus on March 01, 2012, 11:03:22 PM
I'd been using a full stack for a really long time and at the last gig, I lost my speaker cables and could only find one in the studio, so I just used one cab and I think it sounded a lot better, or was it just my imagination?
Depends, Dr. Z. Did it ~sound better~ or could you just hear it better because it wasn't compressing your chest?
I usually play with two half-stacks, both cranked silly. You had to turn your amp up a little higher, didn'tcha?
I run 2 full stacks man. One on each side of the stage.
It is the biggest pain in the ass to drag around, but fuck me if it ain't worth it when we start to play.
;D
There's a shit ton of variations. maybe your amp likes a 16 ohm load better than an 8 ohm load. maybe you weren't hearing so many highs and actually feeling the low end in the stage. Like sunno)) said, maybe you had to turn the amp up a bit resulting in more overdrive. Curious to hear what you think.
I've never liked running full stacks. I always felt like I was losing something, and just figured it had to do with splitting my power to two cabs.
I don't know the science behind it, though.
Walls of cabs always sound better. ;)
(http://i53.tinypic.com/2ugmk2o.jpg)
Ha! I do like two half stacks, though. I also dug two combos. For a while, I was running two heads into a stereo cab, and I dug the shit out of that, as well.
So much fun to be had with loud things.
Nowadays I'm of a mind (ear) that one cab is better (and two half-stacks maybe even better yet) despite my long-held belief that "full-stack, maaaaan!!" was king
Were the two cabs you used the same, loaded with same speakers, or different. Could be that by not using two different sets of speakers you are losing all the cancellations an lumpy response from various phase cancellations from different speakers. Other scenario is if you use the stacked, and this time used a single one on the the floor, you just aren't hearing your top end this time and don't like it. Also maybe jsut pushing power valves harder for volume, since you need twice the power for same spl now an power valve drive is where the mojo is.
yea. The cabs may be out of phase with each other. May just be a wiring issue.
Whenever I've used 2 cabs at the same time I've used a head to power each. But then again I only have a 2X15 & 4X10. I do have a couple heads that could go down to 2 Ohms and power them both together but I never really saw the point. I like the variation you can get between 2 different heads.
Also, for my brothers guitar rig we'd just sit his 4X12 on top of my 4X10 and hook up 2 heads (1 as a slave) for his "full stack"
Quote from: fuzzfarmer on March 02, 2012, 08:22:35 AM
yea. The cabs may be out of phase with each other. May just be a wiring issue.
Wiring affects polarity not phase. Phase can be a number of degrees different, polarity is like 180 deg out of phase only. Different speaker motors affect phase an it is frequency specific, so they might jsut notch out a chunk around 100hz and gut your tone whilst still wired in the correct polarity etc.
Some believe that the higher impedance the better the tone because it uses more transformer so maybe that's it.
Quote from: clockwork green on March 02, 2012, 01:28:26 PM
Some believe that the higher impedance the better the tone because it uses more transformer so maybe that's it.
Some people shouldn't be allowed valve amps.
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on March 02, 2012, 01:13:45 PM
Quote from: fuzzfarmer on March 02, 2012, 08:22:35 AM
yea. The cabs may be out of phase with each other. May just be a wiring issue.
Wiring affects polarity not phase. Phase can be a number of degrees different, polarity is like 180 deg out of phase only. Different speaker motors affect phase an it is frequency specific, so they might jsut notch out a chunk around 100hz and gut your tone whilst still wired in the correct polarity etc.
polarity isnt the right term here to use, its still phase just with respect to each speaker
Too many variables to answer the OP's question in a simple manner.
That said, I'm a big fan of using multiple amps. Each side of my Mesa 50/50 powers its own cab. Either side alone would not sound the same, nor would one side into both cabs.
guy in my band is running a reissue model T into a marshall 4x12 and Hex (dudes from Eagle Twin) 2x15 cab. its pretty fucking beastly.
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on March 02, 2012, 01:51:43 PM
Quote from: clockwork green on March 02, 2012, 01:28:26 PM
Some believe that the higher impedance the better the tone because it uses more transformer so maybe that's it.
Some people shouldn't be allowed valve amps.
Explain please. I can't recall the amp builder that said this in the article (in vintage guitar I believe). His claim was that an amp with 4,8,16-ohm taps use different amounts of the transformers windings and that he found the ones that used more windings to sound fuller and overall better.
Quote from: clockwork green on March 02, 2012, 09:09:31 PM
Quote from: Mr. Foxen on March 02, 2012, 01:51:43 PM
Quote from: clockwork green on March 02, 2012, 01:28:26 PM
Some believe that the higher impedance the better the tone because it uses more transformer so maybe that's it.
Some people shouldn't be allowed valve amps.
Explain please. I can't recall the amp builder that said this in the article (in vintage guitar I believe). His claim was that an amp with 4,8,16-ohm taps use different amounts of the transformers windings and that he found the ones that used more windings to sound fuller and overall better.
Basically, if your amp sounds different on different taps connected to the appropriate loads (and assuming those loads sound the same, so very specifically the amp sounds different) then the amp is defective, most likely the taps are connected wrong, or the output transformer is made badly. There might be variance in output from the taps you can see on test gear because of manufacturing tolerances but not stuff you can actually hear, aside from the fact guitarists can hear quite a lot of things that don't exist often.
I've often pondered this same argument. I too have read the 16ohm vs. 8ohm theory. Here's a direct quote from Gerald Weber, author and amp builder for many many years regarding optimum amp performance. This paragraph is referring to a 78 Orange OD.
"Change the output impedance that you are running the amp.If you are running your 4x12 cabinet at 4 ohms you are missing a lot of what the amp has to offer. Consider this: Your transformer has a 16 ohm, 8 ohm, and 4 ohm tap. when the transformeris made, the 16ohm tap is the entire secondary, the 8 ohm tap is 70.7% of the secondary and the 4 ohm tap is 50% of the secondary. This means when you use the 4 ohm tap, only half of your transformer is being used!
Rewire your speakers to parallel/series. This will get your cabinet to 16ohms. Next, run the output transformer at 16 ohms and you will be using the entire transformer. there is yet another benefit. when running 16 ohms, the turns ratio on the transformer is at its lowest which means there is less coupling loss. Less loss translates into more dynamics, better tone, improved touch sensitivity and a little more volume." end quote
So these things beg the question, why are most 4x12 cabinets 16 ohms? Why not 32 ohms? I've never had the chance or wherewithall to conduct an experiment beings I don't have the exact same cabinets wired 32,16, and 8 ohms to check.
Which also begs the question, why are old Fenders only equipped mainly with a 4 ohm tap?
I am not an amp tech or an electrical engineer nor am I throwing doubt at you guys who are. just pondering the different opinions of the young vs. the old ideas.
/no ground stake 8)
The answer to any 'Why did Fender...?' question is pretty much always going to be 'It was cheaper that way'.
Since 'better tone' is entirely subjective, it is one of those things that a description isn't super useful to actually understanding what is going on. Fairly sure the coupling thing works both ways, so if the transformer acting differently, it would affect the loading on the primary, consistency of which is a bunch of the of the point of having a multi tap transformer. I've never actually wound a transformer so my understanding of their internals is kind of limited, still a bit of a mythical item to me. Is something I will learn when I get hands on a winder.
16 Ohm cabs in the day was probably down to using loads of them with low powered amps, and compatibility with various components available, which weren't necessarily originally made for music gear. guitarists haven't really moved with the times, so the tech hasn't moved either, even though the reasons for stuff is no longer applicable.
Gerald Weber...that's who I was thinking of.
Yep out of his book "Tube Guitar Amplifier Essentials" Got it right here next to me.
Quote from: RAGER on March 03, 2012, 11:46:05 AM
So these things beg the question, why are most 4x12 cabinets 16 ohms? Why not 32 ohms? I've never had the chance or wherewithall to conduct an experiment beings I don't have the exact same cabinets wired 32,16, and 8 ohms to check.
Which also begs the question, why are old Fenders only equipped mainly with a 4 ohm tap?
I think Mr Weber's point isn't what impedance you use, but using the entire secondary winding. So if there's 4/8 taps, the 8 is preferable but not necessarily better than using the 16 of a 4/8/16 OT. Or if there's only 4 ohms at the secondary, that's using the entire winding, too.
Dunno if it's real or just perceived, in my profession I only care about the voltage and VA rating.
Quote from: Dr.Zayus on March 01, 2012, 11:03:22 PM
I'd been using a full stack for a really long time and at the last gig, I lost my speaker cables and could only find one in the studio, so I just used one cab and I think it sounded a lot better, or was it just my imagination?
I had a Butcher I ran with two identical Celestion loaded slant cabs. There was one cab that sounded better and it sounded better to me when I ran that cab by itself. I got rid of the other cab and kept the one I thought sounded better.
whenever possible, i run two different amps together through an a/b box.....one set clean, the other dirty....it what keith richards always does....i reckon he knows best......
i think multiple cabs sounds better.
but when it comes to playing shows and loading gear i am a gaint pussy. one 4x12 is enough for me.
Quote from: RAGER on March 03, 2012, 11:46:05 AM
I've often pondered this same argument. I too have read the 16ohm vs. 8ohm theory. Here's a direct quote from Gerald Weber, author and amp builder for many many years regarding optimum amp performance. This paragraph is referring to a 78 Orange OD.
"Change the output impedance that you are running the amp.If you are running your 4x12 cabinet at 4 ohms you are missing a lot of what the amp has to offer. Consider this: Your transformer has a 16 ohm, 8 ohm, and 4 ohm tap. when the transformeris made, the 16ohm tap is the entire secondary, the 8 ohm tap is 70.7% of the secondary and the 4 ohm tap is 50% of the secondary. This means when you use the 4 ohm tap, only half of your transformer is being used!
Rewire your speakers to parallel/series. This will get your cabinet to 16ohms. Next, run the output transformer at 16 ohms and you will be using the entire transformer. there is yet another benefit. when running 16 ohms, the turns ratio on the transformer is at its lowest which means there is less coupling loss. Less loss translates into more dynamics, better tone, improved touch sensitivity and a little more volume." end quote
So these things beg the question, why are most 4x12 cabinets 16 ohms? Why not 32 ohms? I've never had the chance or wherewithall to conduct an experiment beings I don't have the exact same cabinets wired 32,16, and 8 ohms to check.
Which also begs the question, why are old Fenders only equipped mainly with a 4 ohm tap?
I am not an amp tech or an electrical engineer nor am I throwing doubt at you guys who are. just pondering the different opinions of the young vs. the old ideas.
/no ground stake 8)
haha, you got me laughing on the ground stake. but you know, now we know the story, and i am feeling a lot better about generator setups down the road. back to the subject. these are some good questions.
i wonder if anyone makes a 1:1 winding ratio xformer but with different resistance wire. heh
I prefer multiple cabs but I prefer them with different speakers like a 4x12 and 2x15 or at least a pair of 4x12 with different enough speakers to compliment each other.
Quote from: jibberish on March 04, 2012, 02:13:59 PM
haha, you got me laughing on the ground stake.
That's right, he was all full of assertion with little credentials. Fun times.
i like two because it's one more than one
Quote from: Ayek on March 05, 2012, 01:33:24 AM
Quote from: jibberish on March 04, 2012, 02:13:59 PM
haha, you got me laughing on the ground stake.
That's right, he was all full of assertion with little credentials. Fun times.
you must still have sand in your vag from that one huh?
Not enough to lose sleep over. I'll be ok, but thanks for your concern.
:D