stonerrocklives.com

Just curious. ;D

I am a drummer. I can (and have) play(ed) to a click track, sequencer, etc, live and in the studio. I prefer not to. It feels and sounds more natural/organic to me to let the music breathe. When I, or others I've heard played w/a click, it sounded to my ear too mechanistic.

If you answered no, can you really be considered a drummer yet? Seems to me that is the most basic fundamental of being able to play.

I know seasoned drummers that can't, hence the query ???

Quote from: neighbor664 on January 03, 2012, 10:02:05 PM
If you answered no, can you really be considered a drummer yet? Seems to me that is the most basic fundamental of being able to play.

In all honesty, I would say playing with a click is a different skill from being able to keep a relatively steady beat. I understand why people would think it's the same thing, but it's not.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on January 03, 2012, 10:04:40 PM
I know seasoned drummers that can't, hence the query ???

Do you mean RECORD with a click or simply to be able to play to a click, metronome or mechanical pulse of some sort?

In order to record with a click, don't you have to be able to play to a click? I guess I don't get the distinction.

Then if you are not making a distinction my statement still holds.

A drummer who can not play to a metronome is no drummer at all. Simply just a guy who bangs on stuff repetitiously who may or may not own a drum kit.

I guess if I have to.  I'm cornfused ???  For me that's not usually the recording process.

I think a drummer should be able to. But not make rock records while doing so.unless thee are sequencers, etc.

Quote from: neighbor664 on January 03, 2012, 10:32:56 PM
Then if you are not making a distinction my statement still holds.

A drummer who can not play to a metronome is no drummer at all. Simply just a guy who bangs on stuff repetitiously who may or may not own a drum kit.

I dunno, there's a whole different mindset between setting a tempo, and following a tempo.

A good drummer can pull the music along sometimes better than a click, I think.

Ideally you should  be able to play(record) with a click and without.  Nothing but good will come from practicing, mostly, with a metronome.  And that goes for guitar players too.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on January 03, 2012, 11:03:06 PM

Quote from: neighbor664 on January 03, 2012, 10:32:56 PM
Then if you are not making a distinction my statement still holds.

A drummer who can not play to a metronome is no drummer at all. Simply just a guy who bangs on stuff repetitiously who may or may not own a drum kit.

I dunno, there's a whole different mindset between setting a tempo, and following a tempo.

A good drummer can pull the music along sometimes better than a click, I think.

What would the difference be then if instead of a click it was a bassist playing solid unyielding quarter notes?
That shouldn't be any harder or easier. You can either play in time to established pulse or you can't.
The people who can we call drummers. The rest are wannabes.
The tempo or pulse is the same weather coming from a click, played or implied. Time yields for no man!
It is not a drummers job to keep time as much as it is to be mindful of it.
Good drummers manipulate your perception of time.

As a bassplayer, I follow the drummer, I don't set the tempo, except when there is no drummer.

Quote from: gatorsnot on January 03, 2012, 11:21:32 PM
Ideally you should  be able to play(record) with a click and without.  Nothing but good will come from practicing, mostly, with a metronome.  And that goes for guitar players too.

...and either way I haven't met a guitar player yet that can keep a tempo without drums.

Quote from: neighbor664 on January 03, 2012, 10:32:56 PM
Then if you are not making a distinction my statement still holds.

A drummer who can not play to a metronome is no drummer at all. Simply just a guy who bangs on stuff repetitiously who may or may not own a drum kit.

My band's old drummer couldn't play to a click and he's the best I've ever been in a band with.

Yes.

I too have seen solid drummers lose it to a click. I think it is a mental thing, that any decent drummer could get over with a few hours of solo practice. The problem is that if they are not accustomed to it, a recording studio with 8 people staring at you and the dollars adding up with every minute is not the place to get used to it.

I agree that any drummer should be able to do it, but know a lot of drummers just aren't ACCUSTOMED to it. If a click is in your recording plans, make sure they practice alone ahead of time.

I don't play or own a kit anymore, but I could play to a click. That's how my teacher had me practice from day one. The best comment he gave me about it was that you should only hear the click when you're off beat.

Why should a drummer or anyone else need to play to a click track? Why should we assume that all good songs must not deviate from the original tempo? I believe music should breathe a bit and have fluctuations in tempo as a natural function of the song. The only issue is keeping everyone on the same page. Tempo fluctuations are just another form of dynamics.

Clicks are useful for solo practice and playing to sequencers. Other than that, I don't really see the point.

Yeah, but I don't have to like it.

One big reason to do it is to be able to "punch in" drums on a recording.

In a band situation it tends to suck a lot of the subtle push and pull out of the equation. It is definitely a different animal than practicing by yourself with a metronome. Even then, it is hard to really groove to a click.

When a band practices together, the drummer isn't normally using a click and is setting his tempo internally. After getting the songs tight in that setting and trying to translate that to the studio, the click can turn into a foreign sound in the drummer's headphones. Once you're off the click as a whole band, it is hard to pull everything back together. Unless the engineer picks up on it and kills the click quickly, the take is doomed. That gets to be a lot of pressure. It usually goes easier if the drummer only has the click in his cans and/or if the band is not recording "live".

I've known some excellent drummers with skills far superior to mine that couldn't play to a click because their internal sense of time is so strong that they can't adapt to taking the beat from a click. In that case, they'll play "around" it. The reason that a bassist or guitarist can play to the click easily is that they're used to playing on top of an external beat provided by a drummer or drum machine.

If you want a drummer to record to a click, he needs to practice by himself with it and then slowly integrate it into a band setting where he's the only one hearing it. Everybody else takes their time from the drummer. After that, going into the studio with a click is like just another practice.

That being said, I really like to have a little sway of about 5 bpm either way in the tunes. They seem to "breathe" better that way, and you just don't get that when you record with a click.

Quote from: clockwork green on January 04, 2012, 03:12:34 AM
Why should a drummer or anyone else need to play to a click track? Why should we assume that all good songs must not deviate from the original tempo? I believe music should breathe a bit and have fluctuations in tempo as a natural function of the song. The only issue is keeping everyone on the same page. Tempo fluctuations are just another form of dynamics.

Have to agree with this. Also I read a good article (well two) from Jack Endino last week.

http://musicmachinery.com/2010/02/08/revisiting-the-click-track/

Kinda interesting that Keith Moon played to a click but then there's a really strong synth pattern in that particular song so he pretty much had to use one.

It's definitely worth practising with a click/metronome but not so much for playing unless you have sequenced parts imo..

s'funny how everyone knows a drummer who can't, but all the drummers on here say they can ;)

I was thinking, if we were trading tunes or tracks around, and didn't start with the drums, but started with say the guitar and added the drums later, guitarists have to play to something so it would probably be a click.

Judging from the replies from other folks the OP question has been perceived as:

Do you record with a click?

My response was not regarding the virtues of recording with a click. That is a whole other topic.
Great blog on that. http://musicmachinery.com/2010/02/08/revisiting-the-click-track

My response was to the idea of simply being able to play along to a click or a metronome.
Anyone who plays a musical instrument with any proficiency should be able to play in time to a mechanized pulse.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on January 04, 2012, 09:48:47 AM
s'funny how everyone knows a drummer who can't, but all the drummers on here say they can ;)

I was thinking, if we were trading tunes or tracks around, and didn't start with the drums, but started with say the guitar and added the drums later, guitarists have to play to something so it would probably be a click.

I probably know more that aren't able to play with a click, but given some of the assessments of their abilities in this thread, why would a drummer that can't play with a click even want to respond? "Well I can't do that particular thing, but I'm still awesome." That's kind of tough to defend, and in that situation I wouldn't be proud of the fact that I couldn't do something that these others claim to be able to.

If someone sent me riffs, I'd play along with them enough to form an idea of what the drums need to be doing and where the transitions are, but I'd track it by myself. If a guitarist needed a click to keep it steady enough to send, do it. In my experience, guitarists will need it more than bassists will. Bass players tend to be better with playing time. Those are just generalizations, and I'm not speaking in absolutes here. It just depends on what they're looking for. Straight ahead metal without much groove to it lends itself well to playing with a click. Anything that has any amount of swing or shuffle doesn't starts losing feel when played to a click.

Quote from: neighbor664 on January 04, 2012, 10:26:14 AM
Judging from the replies from other folks the OP question has been perceived as:

Do you record with a click?

My response was not regarding the virtues of recording with a click. That is a whole other topic.
Great blog on that. http://musicmachinery.com/2010/02/08/revisiting-the-click-track

My response was to the idea of simply being able to play along to a click or a metronome.
Anyone who plays a musical instrument with any proficiency should be able to play in time to a mechanized pulse.

Such a great blog post that it needed posting twice. ;)

Quote from: neighbor664 on January 03, 2012, 10:32:56 PM
Then if you are not making a distinction my statement still holds.

A drummer who can not play to a metronome is no drummer at all. Simply just a guy who bangs on stuff repetitiously who may or may not own a drum kit.

Quote from: neighbor664 on January 04, 2012, 10:26:14 AM
My response was to the idea of simply being able to play along to a click or a metronome.
Anyone who plays a musical instrument with any proficiency should be able to play in time to a mechanized pulse.

Ego might come in to play for some if asked to play with a click.  "What?!?!? My meter isn't good enough for you?!?!?" But I can tell when a drummer doesn't have a good internal pulse and it annoys me.  Being able to play with a click is a good skill to have. 

Quote from: Hemisaurus on January 03, 2012, 11:33:05 PM
As a bassplayer, I follow the drummer, I don't set the tempo, except when there is no drummer.

Quote from: gatorsnot on January 03, 2012, 11:21:32 PM
Ideally you should  be able to play(record) with a click and without.  Nothing but good will come from practicing, mostly, with a metronome.  And that goes for guitar players too.

...and either way I haven't met a guitar player yet that can keep a tempo without drums.

Well we haven't met in person, but I play guitar and when I drum I PREFER to play to a click, it really frees you up to do some really tricky shit, and long fills. 

I know so many drummers who can't, or are scared and intimidated by a click, I tell them it's their friend not enemy......

My favorite is when I am engineering/producing a band and the drummer is telling me that the click is speeding up/slowing down! ::)

Bleh. I'd rather hear a band that plays tight with each other moving organically around tempo-wise, than a band that records exclusively to a click and really sounds like it.

Quote from: core9 on January 04, 2012, 11:52:39 AM
My favorite is when I am engineering/producing a band and the drummer is telling me that the click is speeding up/slowing down! ::)

If he says it's slowing down he's probably into speed metal!  ;D

Quote from: Discö Rice on January 04, 2012, 01:36:17 PM
Bleh. I'd rather hear a band that plays tight with each other moving organically around tempo-wise, than a band that records exclusively to a click and really sounds like it.

I agree and when you lay the drums to a live track clicks aren't needed, the music is the click and when the click is there it is all good!

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9M9yKRI9XVw/SuH5aUK1laI/AAAAAAAAA28/90nnysif458/s400/bong.jpg)
Actually, this is needed to determine if there is a real click.

i SWEAR my alesis drum machine speeds up and slows down.

hahahaa.   no shit, practicing to a metronome is tough and i believe worthwhile, so i do it a lot.

if i am going to get messed up, it is in the little fill between phrases, like right before the next verse or whatever and man having the beats forced in really helps me time that right. often i lose or gain 1 beat and that is bogus to get off phrase. basically wrecks the song.

We just feel it out, I'm not even sure if I can properly count time hahaha.

I remember reading somewhere that brann dailor uses a blinking light on his rack instead of a click in his ears. This lets him give the song life and swing but still can let him know if they're speeding up too much cause a lot of mastodons music is just on the verge of speed metal and if sped up would lose it's groove. I thought that was a pretty cool compromise between the two schools of thought here. Anyone ever try this? I'm thinking about to trying to rig something up like that.

Quote from: Discö Rice on January 04, 2012, 01:36:17 PM
Bleh. I'd rather hear a band that plays tight with each other moving organically around tempo-wise, than a band that records exclusively to a click and really sounds like it.

If done correctly that sterile rigidity is non-existent.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying YOU HAVE to use a click, but as a drummer it really actually helps you to groove more if that makes any sense.

Quote from: hashbrowns on January 04, 2012, 02:44:26 PM
I remember reading somewhere that brann dailor uses a blinking light on his rack instead of a click in his ears. This lets him give the song life and swing but still can let him know if they're speeding up too much cause a lot of mastodons music is just on the verge of speed metal and if sped up would lose it's groove. I thought that was a pretty cool compromise between the two schools of thought here. Anyone ever try this? I'm thinking about to trying to rig something up like that.

I have never heard of that before.....seems pretty cool though.

weird, I have a strobe light in the jam room for exactly that purpose, I didn't want the mic's picking up any click.

Quote from: Discö Rice on January 04, 2012, 01:36:17 PM
Bleh. I'd rather hear a band that plays tight with each other moving organically around tempo-wise, than a band that records exclusively to a click and really sounds like it.

Quote from: core9 on January 04, 2012, 02:56:16 PM
If done correctly that sterile rigidity is non-existent.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying YOU HAVE to use a click, but as a drummer it really actually helps you to groove more if that makes any sense.

fixed.
It doesn't help me groove more. I have good meter and I'm tight with my band. That doesn't mean it won't help you, I just find it distracting.

hardest part for me, as a non-drummer, was figuring out the tempo to set the metronome / drum machine to. i found a tap tempo app on the iPad, that tells you the tempo you tap at, and life is much easier, but it also surprised me what tempo I was tapping at vs. what tempo I thought songs were at, no wonder I had issue with the drum machine.

the most fun for me is getting the delay time and the drum machine time even with each other

by fun i mean "way more tweaking needed than it should have been"

Quote from: neighbor664 on January 04, 2012, 10:26:14 AM
Judging from the replies from other folks the OP question has been perceived as:

Do you record with a click?

My response was not regarding the virtues of recording with a click. That is a whole other topic.
Great blog on that. http://musicmachinery.com/2010/02/08/revisiting-the-click-track

My response was to the idea of simply being able to play along to a click or a metronome.
Anyone who plays a musical instrument with any proficiency should be able to play in time to a mechanized pulse.

Didn't you guys have some issue (was this why he was fired) with Ben for not wanting to play to a click back in the weevil days?

Quote from: jibberish on January 04, 2012, 03:51:51 PM
the most fun for me is getting the delay time and the drum machine time even with each other

by fun i mean "way more tweaking needed than it should have been"

That's why digital delays with analog controls are so much fun ;D

Guitar players should learn how to use metronomes too.

Quote from: clockwork green on January 04, 2012, 03:56:21 PM

Quote from: neighbor664 on January 04, 2012, 10:26:14 AM
Judging from the replies from other folks the OP question has been perceived as:

Do you record with a click?

My response was not regarding the virtues of recording with a click. That is a whole other topic.
Great blog on that. http://musicmachinery.com/2010/02/08/revisiting-the-click-track

My response was to the idea of simply being able to play along to a click or a metronome.
Anyone who plays a musical instrument with any proficiency should be able to play in time to a mechanized pulse.

Didn't you guys have some issue (was this why he was fired) with Ben for not wanting to play to a click back in the weevil days?

Quote from: franksnbeans on January 04, 2012, 04:40:12 PM
Guitar players should learn how to use metronomes too.

Shitstorm a-brewin'.

Quote from: franksnbeans on January 04, 2012, 04:40:12 PM
Guitar players should learn how to use metronomes too.

I can from my days playing speed metal.

(https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcWDmp3bWn_PD0D9Xty4DxmlYeRtqtUYv--Z5PUcxy22xFxgpJ)

Quote from: franksnbeans on January 04, 2012, 04:40:12 PM
Guitar players should learn how to use metronomes too.

Nope. Even if they can play to a click track, Metro Gnomes are complete douchebags. Rural/Suburban Gnomes rule.

Quote from: RacerX on January 04, 2012, 05:11:04 PM

Quote from: franksnbeans on January 04, 2012, 04:40:12 PM
Guitar players should learn how to use metronomes too.

Nope. Even if they can play to a click track, Metro Gnomes are complete douchebags. Rural/Suburban Gnomes rule.

I see what you did there.

Quote from: franksnbeans on January 04, 2012, 04:40:12 PM
Guitar players All musicians should learn how to use metronomes too.

fixed it for you

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that click! ;D

Quote from: Harm on January 08, 2012, 03:06:37 PM
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
It don't mean dick if it ain't got that click! ;D

Fixxxed