So I really want to do my outdoor, unexpected location "show" and record them. How would I go about figuring out my total current needs to buy/rent a generator that can handle my amp, bass players amp and a full PA and with a recording computer and maybe even lights?
volts x amperes = watts
figure your current draw (amps) should be listed on your gear, multiply by voltage ( I'm assuming 120vac) = watts.
Just off the cuff I'm figuring a 4kw or 6 kw should work. They have inverter generators now that you can run in parallel (2 at a time) to achieve desired wattage.
That's the quick answer
You'll also need a power conditioner cause generators tend to put out power depending on the rpms of the engine. Which I think makes them drift on the hertz. But that could just be the lower quality generators.
Also, use diesel. Its more badass.
Quote from: SpaceTrucker on December 10, 2011, 12:43:42 PM
You'll also need a power conditioner cause generators tend to put out power depending on the rpms of the engine. Which I think makes them drift on the hertz. But that could just be the lower quality generators.
Also, use diesel. Its more badass.
Not inverter generators. Same voltage/freq. no matter what the rpms. These things are pretty cool.
Power conditioner +1
GROUNDING SPIKE.
I have played an outdoor show and didn't take any unusual measures. Random rental generator and some extension cords.
Full PA, SVT, 100w Marshall, 100w Fender it all worked fine. Put some foam on the mics and don't get shocked. Grounding won't be the best in that situation.
The only generators I've seen are really effing loud. Are there especially quiet ones out there?
There's usually a bolt on the generator for grounding purposes. If there's nothing around that's at ground potential, I'd be inclined to drive a metal stake into the ground and use that
Generators in ye olden days were loud, inefficient,often had unstable irregular output and could in fact be dangerous. The modern ones are awesome, quiet, stable output, efficient , etc.
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/models.aspx?page=models§ion=P2GG&category=play
Some amps fuck up weirdly with power fluctuations. Think valve amps tend to be OK. But might be good to check out your other stuff.
If you don't own one, you can rent generators from some Home Depot stores.
They do make noise, but it isn't all that bad. Just use an extension cord and put the generators as far away from the band and audience as you can. So long as you maintain the engine's ability to draw fresh air and allow for exhaust, you can build a baffle around the generator if it is just loud as balls. Use the ground lug like a previous poster stated. Drive a piece of rebar into the ground and strap the ground lug to it.
Using a power conditioner isn't a bad idea, either.
Quote from: SunnO))) on December 10, 2011, 01:38:29 PM
Power conditioner +1
GROUNDING SPIKE.
+100 on the spike, can't emphasize how important that is.
Most gear has it's power requirement on the back, by the power jack. Add them all up, don't expect a 100W amp to need only 100W of power, a lot is lost as heat and light.
You heard em GROUND IT!!!! A piece of re-bar works great. What kind of lights are you trying to run?
a generator has no "ground" reference in the actual ground. a spike in the dirt is absolutely useless. think of it as a battery.
also, these camping generators are made for lcd tv's, PC's and other touchy digital junk. i'm not sure where this power conditioning hoodoo is coming from besides not enough research on the topic.
i have been shopping generators for a while now and i'll probably get a 1500 watt camping generator for my "outlaw pirate generator jams" that i have been talking about since forever now.
the honda generators are the finest on the market, but yes you will pay.
Go to the Car stereo store. buy one of them cheap subwoofer amp combo boxes and run it off a jump box it's plenty loud and has a ton of low end!
Quote from: jibberish on December 11, 2011, 08:50:05 AM
a generator has no "ground" reference in the actual ground. a spike in the dirt is absolutely useless. think of it as a battery.
also, these camping generators are made for lcd tv's, PC's and other touchy digital junk. i'm not sure where this power conditioning hoodoo is coming from besides not enough research on the topic.
i have been shopping generators for a while now and i'll probably get a 1500 watt camping generator for my "outlaw pirate generator jams" that i have been talking about since forever now.
the honda generators are the finest on the market, but yes you will pay.
A battery doesn't generate an AC voltage, of course it needs a ground reference. Why do you think they call it
ground?
I'm not trying to be combative, but you are giving unsafe, dangerous advice, that could get someone killed.
Quote from: spookstrickland on December 11, 2011, 09:31:25 PM
Go to the Car stereo store. buy one of them cheap subwoofer amp combo boxes and run it off a jump box it's plenty loud and has a ton of low end!
No, this is what you and you alone should do.
Quote from: clockwork green on December 11, 2011, 10:29:26 PM
Quote from: spookstrickland on December 11, 2011, 09:31:25 PM
Go to the Car stereo store. buy one of them cheap subwoofer amp combo boxes and run it off a jump box it's plenty loud and has a ton of low end!
No, this is what you and you alone should do.
Don't knock it until you try it, best guerrilla rock set up ever!
Quote from: Hemisaurus on December 11, 2011, 10:10:11 PM
Quote from: jibberish on December 11, 2011, 08:50:05 AM
a generator has no "ground" reference in the actual ground. a spike in the dirt is absolutely useless. think of it as a battery.
also, these camping generators are made for lcd tv's, PC's and other touchy digital junk. i'm not sure where this power conditioning hoodoo is coming from besides not enough research on the topic.
i have been shopping generators for a while now and i'll probably get a 1500 watt camping generator for my "outlaw pirate generator jams" that i have been talking about since forever now.
the honda generators are the finest on the market, but yes you will pay.
A battery doesn't generate an AC voltage, of course it needs a ground reference. Why do you think they call it ground?
I'm not trying to be combative, but you are giving unsafe, dangerous advice, that could get someone killed.
I need to reinforce this. Besides, what's a power station? Yep, a big ol' generator. I wouldn't bother grounding the generator if, and only if, I was plugging in only double insulated appliances (they has no grounding pin) such as a drill or a heatgun or something. Otherwise, for fuck's sake, ground your shit. I feel weird saying 'ground' instead of 'earth', by the way.
I can tell you, even after 15+ years, it doesn't get any easier
Quote from: Ayek on December 12, 2011, 03:26:00 AM
I feel weird saying 'ground' instead of 'earth', by the way.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on December 11, 2011, 10:10:11 PM
Quote from: jibberish on December 11, 2011, 08:50:05 AM
a generator has no "ground" reference in the actual ground. a spike in the dirt is absolutely useless. think of it as a battery.
also, these camping generators are made for lcd tv's, PC's and other touchy digital junk. i'm not sure where this power conditioning hoodoo is coming from besides not enough research on the topic.
i have been shopping generators for a while now and i'll probably get a 1500 watt camping generator for my "outlaw pirate generator jams" that i have been talking about since forever now.
the honda generators are the finest on the market, but yes you will pay.
A battery doesn't generate an AC voltage, of course it needs a ground reference. Why do you think they call it ground?
I'm not trying to be combative, but you are giving unsafe, dangerous advice, that could get someone killed.
grounding back to the generator ground is one thing. that's not what y'all were saying. y'all were saying put a spike in the dirt.
the power grid is tied to earth ground. a generator is a fully 100% isolated power supply and IS NOT TIED TO EARTH GROUND. putting a ground spike in the earth is a dead end wire. there is no ground circuit.
i dont see how you can call reality dangerous advice. read slowly what was posted prior to my post and you will understand why i mentiuoned an earth ground is USELESS. if you ground, you ground the green wire to the GENERATOR COMMON GROUND. NOT THE EARTH
so spealing of potentially LETHAL advice, your ground wire in the dirt IS NOT A GROUND AT ALL.
and i agree, dont argue with me on this simple concept.
Since the generator is 100% ISOLATED from everything else, you cannot be the victim of a ground fault electrocution like if you stand in water while playing. you all need to understand this about generators. the battery reference was to the total isolation wrt earth ground. not that a battery is an AC device, come on now.
so tell me please exactly what IS the lethal part here of not "grounding" an electrical device plugged into a generator? if it shorts it catches fire until the circuit breaker goes and you may get burned. if you grab the 2 hot wires, well yes, you will get zapped.
furthermore, since there is no true earth ground, which is subject to fluctuation wrt neutral, ungrounded earth reference devices can actually have the ground potential float away from the neutral and you will get tickled from the neutral of an ungrounded device since you are now the ground fault. when a geographic location gets loaded down the neutral gets pulled up. and a ground is needed to keep neutral at ground.
the generators are well regulated and there is no earth ground to float around. please get this detail straight.
apples and oranges folks. power grid AC is a whole different animal from isolated independent power supplies.
You're not grounding for a reference, you are grounding for safety. You can tie all your commons or neutral's together, great for no hum, but if you don't have a path to the ground you are standing on, the possibilty for a lethal potential difference is there.
Current goes to ground, if you're generator is insulated from ground, current will seek the path of least resistance, which could be the person touching his guitar, or holding a mic stand.
It doesn't matter whether the power is generated in a power station miles away, and stepped down via an electric substation, or created with a small engine powered alternator beside you, it obeys the same laws.
Wow this discussion took off. My computer has been fucked up so I couldn't chime in again.
First off let me say that I am an RV Technician for a living and have been for the past 15 years. Generators are in my daily work life. YOU DON'T NEED A GODDAMN GROUND SPIKE!!!!!!
Do you ever see RV's driving around with a ground spike?? No you don't and somehow those people are operating their appliances safely. They are protected by a GFCI circuit internally. The generator you will be using also is protected by a GFCI internally. VERY SIMPLE.
Unless you are using an extremely outdated generator you will not need a power conditioner. Any generator you RENT will be safe, updated, and maintained. IT'S THE LAW!!!.
The inverter generators especially will be able to handle up to about 30 amps all the way down to micro amps and voltages. Many of the new power managing equipment and refrigerators in RV's have sensitive circuit boards that don't like fluctuations and modified sine waves. These generators are made for this type of stuff.
On occasion I sell these stand alone generators and nowhere does it say to add a farking ground spike. Hopefully that clears it up
I will tell them at work that stoned rock said i don't have to ground spike anymore. They will get mad and say what the fuck are you talking about and make me ground it anyways.
To you and everyone else here. If it makes ya feel safer to put a piece of re-bar in the ground, so be it. But it may as well be a twinkie for all the good it's doing.
^heh. ya u got it.
look people, i dont want to come off all intense,but this is important to know since band people are at risk of getting zapped at times. i think there is just a confusion issue here, which we will hash out by the end of the day.
i just thought of another big difference between the power grid and a generator.
the power grid is actually 3-phase. 3-phase is crazy theory compared to single phase generator juice.
3-phase also requires certain grounding precautions, which i agree with hemi on.
but single phase ac could be made from a battery and a chopper, and there is no center 3-phase leg/point and hence no center "ground" point. you get a straight sinusoidal voltage, and actually now we are sort of having an ac battery happening. does this make sense?
also the riskiest thing you could do with a generator is put a ground spike in the dirt from the generator ground and then another from your gear. why would you want to make the dirt part of an open circuit when it was so safely isolated to start with. now if you grab the hot in bare feet, the dirt completes the ground fault through you
Quote from: Hemisaurus on December 12, 2011, 10:57:10 AM
You're not grounding for a reference, you are grounding for safety. You can tie all your commons or neutral's together, great for no hum, but if you don't have a path to the ground you are standing on, the possibilty for a lethal potential difference is there.
Current goes to ground, if you're generator is insulated from ground, current will seek the path of least resistance, which could be the person touching his guitar, or holding a mic stand.
It doesn't matter whether the power is generated in a power station miles away, and stepped down via an electric substation, or created with a small engine powered alternator beside you, it obeys the same laws.
hemi, bro, you are totally wrong. an isolated supply has a path of infinite resistance wrt the dirt. you are not part of the isolated circuit touching a mike standing on the dirt. there is no path of least resistance since there IS NO PATH unless you grab both wires and make a circuit. you can grab a hot wire and if you are insulated, nothing happens. this is the generator scenario. nothing goes to the dirt wrt the generator as it is in no way connected to the dirt. the generator has absolutely no relation to the power grid. none. there is no current going to the dirt at all.
What we should really be discussing is length and gauge of extension cords so you don't get voltage drop and current issues. that's when breakers trip.
Quote from: RAGER on December 12, 2011, 11:45:44 AM
Wow this discussion took off. My computer has been fucked up so I couldn't chime in again.
First off let me say that I am an RV Technician for a living and have been for the past 15 years. Generators are in my daily work life. YOU DON'T NEED A GODDAMN GROUND SPIKE!!!!!!
Do you ever see RV's driving around with a ground spike?? No you don't and somehow those people are operating their appliances safely. They are protected by a GFCI circuit internally. The generator you will be using also is protected by a GFCI internally. VERY SIMPLE.
Unless you are using an extremely outdated generator you will not need a power conditioner. Any generator you RENT will be safe, updated, and maintained. IT'S THE LAW!!!.
The inverter generators especially will be able to handle up to about 30 amps all the way down to micro amps and voltages. Many of the new power managing equipment and refrigerators in RV's have sensitive circuit boards that don't like fluctuations and modified sine waves. These generators are made for this type of stuff.
On occasion I sell these stand alone generators and nowhere does it say to add a farking ground spike. Hopefully that clears it up
You failed to mention that in yer RVs all metal objects are equipotentially bonded, along with the generator, something which would be impractical for the situation being discussed. You
do bond them, don't you?
I failed to mention chassis grounding (equipotentially bonding)? No I didn't. I never intended to. We were talking about stand alone generators which i guess would be bonded right? I'm not sure what your point is.
Oh and I don't build RVs, I work on them. But the manufacturers connect all grounds to a common source as per ASE and RVIA
Isn't the gen on an RV grounded to the chassis of an RV?
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
OSHA guidebook says the gen frame serves as ground. What if the generator is insulated from ground by rubber feet? Would a ground spike be required, then?
Id power condition anyways, don't give a fuck if it's overly cautious.
Im gonna spike it regardless.
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Yes. I seen a bitch get her lips fried sangin some gospel music and there was no spike. With a spike it don't happen. Argue all you want. I saw it happen. Can't change it. The ground is floating. You can do 3 phase power off of generators as well. Im saying that when I show up, I drive the spike and connect a wire to it from the gen. Takes less than 5 minutes and everything goes well and bitches don't be getting there lips fried.
What ever guys. Do what you want. Not gonna argue this anymore. i know what I'm doing. i have to leave to go work on a 38 foot 5th wheel with a generator in it. I will be using power tools with no ground spike. hopefully I'll survive just like I have been for the last 15 years. Wish me luck. out
QuoteIm saying that when I show up, I drive the spike and connect a wire to it from the gen. Takes less than 5 minutes and everything goes well and bitches don't be getting there lips fried.
Word.
Plus, Fried Bitch Lips would be an excellent song title/band name.
Quote from: RacerX on December 12, 2011, 02:38:25 PM
QuoteIm saying that when I show up, I drive the spike and connect a wire to it from the gen. Takes less than 5 minutes and everything goes well and bitches don't be getting there lips fried.
Word.
Plus, Fried Bitch Lips would be an excellent song title/band name.
I say song name, as it would work for any flavor really. As a band name? I don't know. What do they fucking sound like. Maybe butthole surfersish with more noise and could have a song called i ground my shit with twinkies.
OSHA say that the generator frames seves as ground IF certain requirements are made. I seem to recall the main part being that the chassis is bonded to circuit ground, and that the generator is less than a kilowatt or two, and that only hand tools and work-lights are being used on it. I also recall OSHA saying something like as lightning is unlikely to strike
BS - British Safety (unfortunate acronym I know) don't fart about and say ground it, so why bother figuring out if you can maybe get away with it, just ground it, and be done.
This discussion was referring to band equipment and PA, not hand tools, tube amplifiers not being the safest pieces of gear at the best of times, just ground it.
Funny how the manuals don't mention anything about having to drive a ground spike, you think they all forgot? You'd think they would mention that so, you know, customers don't get theysefs killed until they're dead and shit.
Really? Cummins has a course you go on, and a couple of manuals devoted to the topic. Maybe nowadays they think frame ground is good enough I suppose US standards are pretty sloppy when it comes to electricity.
I dunno man. RAGER's experience aligns with mine over decades and we're both still typing (perhaps to the board's detriment LOL). I've rented Hondas numerous times and read the manuals closely because I'm not really that into getting killed and haven't ever been instructed to drive a ground spike. I would have if instructed, since getting deaded would have ruined my day, see...
Everyone just do what they think is best and hopefully none of us get killed in the process, I'll leave it there
I am coming at it from an industrial, rather than a construction type frame, maybe we're more rigorous as we could be dealing with higher currents, I did find the OSHA BS
Quote
I. Generator Grounding Electrode Exemption (system grounding)
29 CFR 1926.404 (f)(3) Portable and vehicle-mounted generators - (i) Portable Generators. Under the following conditions the frame of portable generator need not be grounded and may serve as the grounding electrode" (NEC Article 250.34 2002 Edition). This reference is talking about a grounding electrode which is code language for a system ground or connection of an electrical system to the earth or our surroundings. In other words a ground rod is not required and in fact may actually create a hazard. The conditions are:
A) The generator supplies only cord and plug connected equipment (saws, drills, lights, etc.) through the receptacles mounted on the generator.
AND
B) The grounding pin of the receptacles is connected to the generator frame and the grounding conductors (3rd wire/equipment ground) of the portable equipment plugged into the generator is continuous to the generator frame.
Oh my god. Somehow I survived today. :o
Would you guys stop being dicks for a quick minute and realize there's more than one way to skin a cat?
It's also possible to over engineer the skinning of said cat.
Well, it's better than under-engineering.
I notoriously go more than the full nine, all the time, so, I'll spike it.
(http://gifs.gifbin.com/052009/1241261617_football-fail.gif)
There's also more than one way of frying a cat, which is the concern here. Given the conditions and the equipment being used that we're talking about, there's higher chances of fault conditions than using double insulated power tools.
I'd say that some of you are just taking things personally and it's only marginally entertaining to read.
I tend to go by manuals and pro advice, myself. Then again, I'm a superstitious mofo and also do what makes me feel good. That being said, I don't know shit, but have played lots of times outside via generators and never have gotten so much as slightly shocked...knock on wood. Not sure if anything was ever "grounded" as per a spike in the ground, but who knows? Playing outside is fun, especially at the beach during a fool moon.
Quote from: eyeprod on December 13, 2011, 12:18:08 AM
I'd say that some of you are just taking things personally and it's only marginally entertaining to read.
I tend to go by manuals and pro advice, myself. Then again, I'm a superstitious mofo and also do what makes me feel good. That being said, I don't know shit, but have played lots of times outside via generators and never have gotten so much as slightly shocked...knock on wood. Not sure if anything was ever "grounded" as per a spike in the ground, but who knows? Playing outside is fun, especially at the beach during a fool moon.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tbIrONlKCFU/S8440GMjLUI/AAAAAAAAAkg/DoxfMWkakGg/s1600/tempo_rock_roll_party.jpg)
Quote from: RAGER on December 12, 2011, 12:35:08 PM
What we should really be discussing is length and gauge of extension cords so you don't get voltage drop and current issues. that's when breakers trip.
How about this one? You can get them heavy duty construction type leads that are 30m (100 feet?), and are of suitable gauge to minimize volt drop. Avoid connecting extension leads end to end and disperse the load across all the socket outlets on the generator. That's what I'd suggest.
ok, well i dont want to be at odds with anyone here.
so i will just finish up.
=================================================================================
i was meditating on the point of contention with hemi and i believe i know what it is:
confusion regarding the total indepedence of 2 power sources that are not wired in a circuit to each other.
there has to be a complete in-out path for both sources of emf to actually move electrons
===================================================================================
now onto this other thing that still bugs me (from an electrical engineer with 20yrs of hands on industrial machinery experience perspective only) i would like some hard explanation of the benefit of grounding your stand-alone generator into the earth. the risk is obvious. i pointed that out in an earlier post already.
"we always did it" doesnt cut it. that tells no one anything.
people in charge of things sometimes dont set it up right and the error persists over time+habit.
there is one possibility for some bad tradition
i really would like to know because i just dont see it.
seems the document authors also are aware of this potential , and un-necessary hazard.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on December 12, 2011, 03:38:55 PM
In other words a ground rod is not required and in fact may actually create a hazard.
i mentioned running a ground rod from the generator ground into the earth now makes the earth part of the ground plane. NOW if someone grabs a hot wire and connects to the earth , they will get zapped if the dirt has low enough resistance. i believe this may be a scenario referred to by that document. IMO the lady stopped getting fried when the stake was removed from the dirt.
anyway, i would really like a serious explanation. thx
================================================================================
...all in the interest of keeping us all alive longer...
You homos still flingin' poo over this? How many of you are actually going to do this?
. IMO the lady stopped getting fried when the stake was removed from the dirt.
anyway, i would really like a serious explanation. thx
================================================================================
...all in the interest of keeping us all alive longer...
[/quote]
The promoter is contractually bound to insure that the company providing the generator stake it. Her lips stopped frying when she stopped touching the mic (which was phantom powered, there was no stake i let it slide i was feeling lazy) and when switched to a dynamic it stopped.
Forever Forced to stake by the man,
Cat Shepard
So when I eventually rent a generator I'll let you guys knowif I get killed or not.
Quote from: cat shepard on December 13, 2011, 10:47:12 PM
. IMO the lady stopped getting fried when the stake was removed from the dirt.
anyway, i would really like a serious explanation. thx
================================================================================
...all in the interest of keeping us all alive longer...
The promoter is contractually bound to insure that the company providing the generator stake it. Her lips stopped frying when she stopped touching the mic (which was phantom powered, there was no stake i let it slide i was feeling lazy) and when switched to a dynamic it stopped.
Forever Forced to stake by the man,
Cat Shepard
[/quote]
ok chief, you have described what you saw. i cant debate that, obviously.
i will do some research to see why this staking of a generator is mandated under these terms or w/e.
I'm very curious, because i really am baffled. it is either wrong or i'm missing some detail of electro-world that i feel i should know. btw, ya this is pure geek stuff now. but im a geek, so ..ya..