So a bunch of guys on here are looking for the best deal on getting a head. For those of you who have some balls, you can get a MOD 101 50W kit head for 400 bucks (+ship)
http://www.tubesandmore.com/scripts/foxweb.dll/moreinfo@d:/dfs/elevclients/cemirror/ELEVATOR.FXP?item=K-MOD101
This kit is sort of an experimenters kit because you can do all sorts of circuits with it. For the price its a pretty damn good deal,
Hammond Transformers, Mallory Caps, Carbon Film resistors. All JJ tubes. Its a terminal strip based layout with 2 preamp tubes and 2 power tubes (JJ 6L6 or EL34)
It has 3 controls, Bass Treble and Volume. If you looking to get a simple Orange 50W style head it could be built of this thing. Bass and Treble would be a bax stack and you would have a non master simple version. Of course your shedding a few controls (presence,boost, and the FAC) but those can either be hardwired for personal tatse or eliminated (boost and presence come to mind)
if you down, i can cook up a schematic and then you can build it youself.
oh now that's cool!
i wonder how it differs from say, an old tube PA head? (besides all the uneccesary crap in the pa head).
Ive built several kit amps. It was a fun (and at times frustrating) experience. I recommend it tho. It will give you the confidence and basic knowledge to do simple repairs on your existing amps...in the end you save enough money to pay for the amp you've built. You also learn about amplification in a way I hadnt expectd, and improving your understanding actually helps you acheive better tones, or at least gives you some ideas as to how best get the tones you want. To top it off, the amps I built sound fantastic.
I enjoy having a project to work on so these wer great for me, gave me a couple weeknds worth of FUN building em. (Then 4 months worth of frustration sorting out the tremolo on my 18 watt-the layout and schem provided were incorrect!! >:()
alot of people here think 60 watts isnt enough. IM not one of those, I use a forty over my 120, and 2 100 watters.
i've thought about just finding a 40-60 watt tube pa head and just start going to town (under the guidance of a few friends). alas, that is probably a ways off.
this sucker would be like any 50W guitar head, just condensed in size, no aesthetic frills.
Quote from: justinhedrick on October 14, 2011, 10:55:46 AM
i've thought about just finding a 40-60 watt tube pa head and just start going to town (under the guidance of a few friends). alas, that is probably a ways off.
a 70's fender pa100 head might be nice for that, i think all you'd have to do is deal with the tone stacks?.
4 channels, 100 watts.
Quote from: Chovie D on October 14, 2011, 12:26:45 PM
Quote from: justinhedrick on October 14, 2011, 10:55:46 AM
i've thought about just finding a 40-60 watt tube pa head and just start going to town (under the guidance of a few friends). alas, that is probably a ways off.
a 70's fender pa100 head might be nice for that, i think all you'd have to do is deal with the tone stacks?.
4 channels, 100 watts.
i've thought about this, but all of those i see now are kind of expensive (over $400). I would think i could get an older bogen or some off brand PA head for well under that.
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 14, 2011, 10:21:06 AM
if you down, i can cook up a schematic and then you can build it youself.
I've been dwelling on an amp build for a few weeks, and I may have to jump on this. If I do, I'd love some guidance in adding a FAC to an Orange-style build.
This came along at a sweet time, as I've been both a) lusting after OR80's and OR120's, and b) just got six 6550's from a friend, which, rather than have sit around, I thought I should use. But for a first amp build, a kit is probably the better answer.
The FAC is a bunch of selectable capacitors on am switch, it's often put right in front of the input jack, before the first triode.
(http://users.telenet.be/orangefg/OFG_SCHEM/GRO100_preamp.jpg)
sometimes it's done as part of the tone stack instead
(http://users.telenet.be/orangefg/OFG_SCHEM/OR120_72preamp.jpg)
Quote from: xayk on October 14, 2011, 01:52:13 PM
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 14, 2011, 10:21:06 AM
if you down, i can cook up a schematic and then you can build it youself.
I've been dwelling on an amp build for a few weeks, and I may have to jump on this. If I do, I'd love some guidance in adding a FAC to an Orange-style build.
This came along at a sweet time, as I've been both a) lusting after OR80's and OR120's, and b) just got six 6550's from a friend, which, rather than have sit around, I thought I should use. But for a first amp build, a kit is probably the better answer.
You possibly could run 6550s, the OT in this amp is a 1650P which has a primary impedance of 6600 a little higher than where I normally would run a KT88 or 6550. the PT is a 374BX which has plenty of heater current and a secondary of 375V which would give an unloaded B+ of 530 thats not bad for a pair of 6550s.
Adding a FAC would take some thought the amp is fairly tight but its possible.
We could build a FAC pedal, which is just a FAC in the pedal before the amp that would also work. Maybe even include boosters for some tweaks
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 14, 2011, 02:10:17 PM
You possibly could run 6550s, the OT in this amp is a 1650P which has a primary impedance of 6600 a little higher than where I normally would run a KT88 or 6550. the PT is a 374BX which has plenty of heater current and a secondary of 375V which would give an unloaded B+ of 530 thats not bad for a pair of 6550s.
Adding a FAC would take some thought the amp is fairly tight but its possible.
We could build a FAC pedal, which is just a FAC in the pedal before the amp that would also work. Maybe even include boosters for some tweaks
I'd seen the OR120 preamp schematic before with the FAC as part of the tone stack - I'm guessing it'd be easier to slide it in after the input/between the triode? Or, as you say, as a pedal. Would that be entirely passive, no power to it? Would be an interesting idea.
I don't even really need to use the 6550's in this kit. I was just kind of wondering aloud if, after a few years of pedals and a few amps mods, if starting 'from scratch' w/ 6550's was a bad idea vs. doing a kit first. And I know in my heart the answer to that question. ;)
Quote from: xayk on October 14, 2011, 02:27:41 PM
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 14, 2011, 02:10:17 PM
You possibly could run 6550s, the OT in this amp is a 1650P which has a primary impedance of 6600 a little higher than where I normally would run a KT88 or 6550. the PT is a 374BX which has plenty of heater current and a secondary of 375V which would give an unloaded B+ of 530 thats not bad for a pair of 6550s.
Adding a FAC would take some thought the amp is fairly tight but its possible.
We could build a FAC pedal, which is just a FAC in the pedal before the amp that would also work. Maybe even include boosters for some tweaks
I'd seen the OR120 preamp schematic before with the FAC as part of the tone stack - I'm guessing it'd be easier to slide it in after the input/between the triode? Or, as you say, as a pedal. Would that be entirely passive, no power to it? Would be an interesting idea.
I don't even really need to use the 6550's in this kit. I was just kind of wondering aloud if, after a few years of pedals and a few amps mods, if starting 'from scratch' w/ 6550's was a bad idea vs. doing a kit first. And I know in my heart the answer to that question. ;)
Whether or not its in the amp or in a pedal, FAC is always passive, its just an adjustable RC filter. Where it is located is important, out front its going to have a huge range on your clipping while the later in the amp, the less control it has on clipping. Building it in a pedal is nice because you can shuttle it between different amps, even before/after other pedals to get interesting ideas. It can be totally unpowered 2, or maybe a 9V bat for the LED if that is needed
you could also run it in the effects loop of an amp, no?
Yep but this sucker doesnt have a loop and I would not recommend putting one in, it takes a lot of design and space, and another tube slot
If the loop was really low impedance the FAC would need to be slightly modded to address this 2
here you go, this covers preamp up to PI, doesnt include FAC, should just build it out front. right click and hit view image or what nor
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2172/budgetorange.png
(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2172/budgetorange.png)
it looks a little complex but most of that shit gets mount on the pots (all of the components of the bax stack do) it can be done with terminal strips. It would really be a great simple build that destroys crap commercial amps
I emailed them for the kit instructions in detail so I can see how easily this can be done. You may need a few components to fit the bill, idk yet as i dont know all the stuff which comes with the kit but i dont think it would cost much either way.
anyone remember the very tone pedal from snarling dog? is that like a FAC pedal?
After listening to one, its nothing like a FAC, its something else. Could be passive filtering but its not what a FAC does, which is much similar.
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 14, 2011, 05:31:57 PM
After listening to one, its nothing like a FAC, its something else. Could be passive filtering but its not what a FAC does, which is much similar.
i see. i see.
All you need for an outboard fac is half dozen capacitors, 1 resistor, one 6 pos 1 pole rotary switch, 2 jacks, one 3PDT switch, and an enclosure. If you need a bat and LED then that 2
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 14, 2011, 05:38:42 PM
All you need for an outboard fac is half dozen capacitors, 1 resistor, one 6 pos 1 pole rotary switch, 2 jacks, one 3PDT switch, and an enclosure. If you need a bat and LED then that 2
right on. i've heard most people mainly use the first 2 positions? any truth?
yea they can get too bright IMO (suck too much bass away), that why i design them to have more intermediate cap values so you get more useful selections
Quote from: justinhedrick on October 14, 2011, 05:27:02 PM
anyone remember the very tone pedal from snarling dog? is that like a FAC pedal?
A buddy had one years back. From what I remember, it really just set the level of low end punch to brightness. It was kind of like a mix between a treble boost and a preset eq pedal. it didn't effect clipping like the FAC can do.
The graphics always sounded fine to me, the ones I worked on in the 90's were all graphics or derivatives (200), I've never encountered one where the FAC is beyond the tonestack, so I don't know how they sound, nor have I heard one of the modern ones with mids.
The earlier ones the caps look like they are in parallel, but you're only ever getting one at a time. The other ones, and I think maybe the Weber kit, the caps are in series, the more caps you add in series, the smaller the capacitance value you end up with (small capacitance == less bass).
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 14, 2011, 03:49:40 PM
here you go, this covers preamp up to PI, doesnt include FAC, should just build it out front. right click and hit view image or what nor
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2172/budgetorange.png
(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2172/budgetorange.png)
it looks a little complex but most of that shit gets mount on the pots (all of the components of the bax stack do) it can be done with terminal strips. It would really be a great simple build that destroys crap commercial amps
NB the second tube in the kit is an AT7 not an AX7, you could split the difference and get a DW7 if you need the higher mu for the phase splitter.
If it's front panel space that's the problem, couldn't you skip the standby switch, move the power switch to the standby position and mount the FAC right next to the input jack, you can put the whole input assy on the jack and link it straight to the FAC a la, the front panel of the 200 design.
I tried adding the kit, it's $495 or $500 in real terms, with free shipping in the US.
Correction please Mr. Moderator ;)
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 14, 2011, 06:56:33 PM
I tried adding the kit, it's $495 or $500 in real terms, with free shipping in the US.
Correction please Mr. Moderator ;)
I get em for 400 at CE Dist, that why i brought it up, its now cheaper than a weber
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61i9PGR4%2BfL.jpg
Not much front panel space makes me think that its not easily done to run the signal all the way to that end of the chassis
I wondered why the had the input jack all the way on the left by the power, that's the pilot light ;D
What's the back panel space like? Orange used to have the Presence back there on the 200's because they were based on the slave chassis, and the presence is part of the power section. Is that logo a badge or painted on? I'm thinking people might want to drill a couple of extra holes there. I love the Bax stack, as you'll notice from my other posts, but I don't know if it's flexible enough for guitarists, without a FAC, Boost or Presence.
I guess the options are, deal with it, add on a box, drill more holes, or use concentric pots for Bass/Treble and maybe Gain/Master I don't like concentric pots generally but they would save panel space.
(http://www.modkitsdiy.com/images/mod_101_internal.gif)
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 13, 2011, 10:56:20 PM
I would avoid tag strips and go with a custom build Turret layout, its a lot easier to work it that way. I have done both and making ur own layout to avoid noise and optimize the grounding scheme for a sweet amp is better than following an old design.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 14, 2011, 07:10:17 PM
I wondered why the had the input jack all the way on the left by the power, that's the pilot light ;D
What's the back panel space like? Orange used to have the Presence back there on the 200's because they were based on the slave chassis, and the presence is part of the power section. Is that logo a badge or painted on? I'm thinking people might want to drill a couple of extra holes there. I love the Bax stack, as you'll notice from my other posts, but I don't know if it's flexible enough for guitarists, without a FAC, Boost or Presence.
I guess the options are, deal with it, add on a box, drill more holes, or use concentric pots for Bass/Treble and maybe Gain/Master I don't like concentric pots generally but they would save panel space.
(http://www.modkitsdiy.com/images/mod_101_internal.gif)
Im trying to avoid too much extra drilling but yes you can do all of that
IMO Boost and Presence controls are okay but i dont think they are needed given the range a treble control on a bax has
What does the boost function do exactly? I've notice some of the OR80's have them and some don't.
As you turn it up, less bass is allowed through, as it's an adjustable cathode bypass. Your basically monkeying with the frequency response of the driver circuit. So it's like a strangle control for bass.
Modified to remove drivel of crap ;)
Here's a graphical explanation, this page used to exist on Geocities, and I retrieved it from the Internet Archive, but the pics were broken, so I copied it to my own server to fix the pics, it is not my work.
http://dub.greboguru.org/orange-stack.html (http://dub.greboguru.org/orange-stack.html)
FAC and Drive control wiring from the Lead 200, taken from http://planetoftheamps.com (http://planetoftheamps.com)
(http://dub.greboguru.org/orange200input.jpg)
Right on, Hemi. Thanks for the clarification. ;)
The boost only affects hi end, its a band pass based boost circuit with a 2mH choke and a 470nF cap, thats really focused on the upper end of the freq spectrum, plus it is part of the NFB loop. Estimated center frequency is ~5.2 kHz
Check the schematic for an early OR,
(http://users.telenet.be/orangefg/OFG_SCHEM/OR120schem_72.gif)
When its turned down, you have a balanced cathodyne driver response, but when its up you get a lot of high end gain. But mostly its adding a lot of noise 2 at that higher freq range so lead dress is critical to avoid any problems with NFB loop running back across the amp.
Now the Drive control used on some of the GT-120s controlled how much loading was on the first gain stage and the bright cap on the volume pot. When turn up, the loading is removed from the amp and the bright cap is applied for maximum signal to the volume pot.
Sorry if my correction seems dickish, just trying to make this clear. I think you can get rid of Presence and Boost and still be fine as long as u have some NFB installed in the amp to dampen the power amp. If possibly we may get a FAC control in here but its not so easy if that logo is fixed on their. Its possible on the back panel but the layout has to make sense since this control comes off the plate resistor and coupling cap.
No, it's good. I like that both you guys are sharing information. I'm pretty thickheaded with this electro-wizardry, so the more the merrier. Feel free to dumb it down some ;).
So does the boost contribute much to tone shaping in the pre-amp or is it really mild/less than noticeable like some presence controls?
It's amazing the little differences between amps ;D
(http://dub.greboguru.org/scan0002.jpg)
that was what I was talking about, they didn't bother with inductors on all of the models, a lot of them were just a simple (read cheaper perhaps) cathode bypass cap.
It was one of those controls that depended how hard you were pushing the amp. It seemed to have more effect when the amp was pushed hard, it's been 15 years or more since I had an Orange on the bench though, so you're pushing my memory here. I was driving on the left, eating chips and Pot Noodles, and living the bachelor life ;)
Found a cleaner schematic
(http://users.telenet.be/orangefg/OFG_SCHEM/OR120schem_post74.jpg)
Dug this up, hopefully it displays OK.
(http://dub.greboguru.org/gainy.jpg)
(http://dub.greboguru.org/gainy-graph.jpg)
Is this what they mean when they say someone has taken you back to school? Haven't thought about this stuff in years ;D
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 14, 2011, 09:47:49 PM
Now the Drive control used on some of the GT-120s controlled how much loading was on the first gain stage and the bright cap on the volume pot. When turn up, the loading is removed from the amp and the bright cap is applied for maximum signal to the volume pot.
Now worries, I only included the Drive control because it was there. I don't think an attenuator or a bright cap is necessary, and it always seemed dumb to have a 4 position rotary switch instead of a couple of toggles, maybe it was for aesthetics. I think they used to be called Stage Normal / Stage Bright / Studio Normal / Studio Bright, but of course padding it down in the first stage affected the tone throughout the rest of the circuit, it didn't just make it quieter.
I've searched every site I could think of, that makes sense (Mouser never makes sense), for 1M concentric pots with no luck, 500K log seems to be the highest, unless you start trolling eBay for surplus. I can spitball the following ideas.
1. Redesign the tone stack for 500K pots. Put FAC in spare space.
2. Replace the volume with a concentric pot, use the other element for a small coupling cap, and a larger cap with the pot element, this would be FAC-ish.
3. Looks like there's enough room beside the input jack for 3 mini toggle switches, fit 4 caps on there default, small switch, medium switch and large switch you have 9 or 10 options with between OFF/OFF/OFF (just default) and ON/ON/ON (default+small+medium+large)
4. Rube Goldberg time, you can make 1M concentric pots by butchering some regular 1M pots and a similar sized concentric pot, just exchange elements.
5. External FAC box
6. Back panel FAC
7. No FAC
the OR 200s a tad different of an amp, Orange is fond of changing schematics in the 70s.
IMO you can do a simple DPDT on off on switch and you would get 3 mods of operation, just // some caps after the 2nd gain stage to get a FAC esque control. In the off mod you could have the least bassy setup with say a 10nF cap, then one way you add 22nF while the other way you could add 47nF. fine tune this shit as you see fit.
i dont think a concentric pot is worth the cost, its a bitch to put all the components on it where as I can mount all of the bax stack components on the 2 pots easily for the best layout possible.
It's quite do-able.
(http://amps.zugster.net/images/articles/tonestacks/bax-layout-concentric-pots.gif)(http://amps.zugster.net/images/articles/tonestacks/bax-layout-2-pots.gif)
but that was only one idea.
Yeah, it's weird, it looks like all the post 72 amps didn't have the inductor (that second schematic is not from a 200), but then the 200 itself is a Mat design which puts it pre 72. So perhaps the idea was adopted from the 200 and applied to the rest of the models? Perhaps it was the great inductor famine ;D
Academic as you don't have panel space for it anyways. Do you include an inductive boost on some of your own models?
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 15, 2011, 06:12:04 AM
It's quite do-able.
(http://amps.zugster.net/images/articles/tonestacks/bax-layout-concentric-pots.gif)(http://amps.zugster.net/images/articles/tonestacks/bax-layout-2-pots.gif)
but that was only one idea.
Yeah, it's weird, it looks like all the post 72 amps didn't have the inductor (that second schematic is not from a 200), but then the 200 itself is a Mat design which puts it pre 72. So perhaps the idea was adopted from the 200 and applied to the rest of the models? Perhaps it was the great inductor famine ;D
Academic as you don't have panel space for it anyways. Do you include an inductive boost on some of your own models?
That picture is a little far from the reality persay, it doesnt take into account the size of the components. Its doable dont get me wrong but its not the easiest. You can run a bax on 500k log no problem. The thing is that concentric pots are going to cost you extra for the pot and knob so thats something to consider.
Heres a gut shot of the metro which has a bax
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7845/gut5.jpg
Its hi res so zoom in and you can see how I laid it out on 2 pots (plus shift control)
I assume they dropped inductors because they are expensive.
Concentric pots were only one idea, and like you say it's do-able, those don't look like fullsize pots in the Metro, you could fit those caps you've used, and it would be $23, $11 for the pot $12 for a knob set.
Yeah, I can't recall ever having worked on an Orange with that inductor, it must have been shortlived.
Anyway, please don't bust a gut trying to fix it unless other people wanted a FAC. I'm only talking hypothetically, I wouldn't be buying one.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 15, 2011, 11:24:58 AM
Concentric pots were only one idea, and like you say it's do-able, those don't look like fullsize pots in the Metro, you could fit those caps you've used, and it would be $23, $11 for the pot $12 for a knob set.
Yeah, I can't recall ever having worked on an Orange with that inductor, it must have been shortlived.
Anyway, please don't bust a gut trying to fix it unless other people wanted a FAC. I'm only talking hypothetically, I wouldn't be buying one.
Pots in Metro are PEC 2W milspec 24mm full size I believe. Only early 70s ORs had those inductors which give the Boost a little different behavior.
My idea with this MOD kit is that we on StonerRock could develop a nice little 50W OR type build that would be great for users who are looking for a vintage amp which they could rip on for a reasonable price. As long as users can build it. I think its a worthy investment, as you do not need me to build you something. I believe anyone on here could learn to build a nice amp
Yeah, I think I said I only saw it in schematics for some pre '72 Oranges. I wouldn't have seen any of the recent post 90's Orange's, I was married and emigrated by then. I think Orange were gone, or very quiet for the 80's and 90's. I don't recall any new stock around. I imagine I was working mostly on the mid 70's gear. I should also have noted that in the OR200 the 'boost' is called presence and mounted on the back panel, and there's a different control for 'boost' which is on the cathode of the second triode instead.
I guess I don't get the idea in that, are we ordering the kits from you, where you get the original kit, and add / subtract whatever is needed for your particular design, and then ship it to us. Or are we ordering the kit through you, to be drop shipped to us, and then we all generate a list of any extra parts we need?
It's a nice kit in that it has Hammond xfmrs, and good caps and all, but the lack of front panel space makes it kind of limiting hence me trying to come up with a way we could at least get a little more tonal variation. It's more of a tube tweaker or circuit tweakers kit, than a players kit.
As an aside, and I mentioned something like this in another thread, have you thought of generating MOD boards yourself for peoples current amps? You could have a stock of semi-built turret boards and people could retrofit their current amps, or buy a beater amp and turn it into something nicer? You could either add the necessary tweaks yourself on demand (to handle the differences in tube driving) or just supply instructions?
Just a thought, I think I said I should start a service doing the mods myself for cost of parts plus a flat fee, but this would be more DIY for people and might be a revenue stream for you?
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 15, 2011, 02:47:08 PM
Yeah, I think I said I only saw it in schematics for some pre '72 Oranges. I wouldn't have seen any of the recent post 90's Orange's, I was married and emigrated by then. I think Orange were gone, or very quiet for the 80's and 90's. I don't recall any new stock around. I imagine I was working mostly on the mid 70's gear.
I guess I don't get the idea in that, are we ordering the kits from you, where you get the original kit, and add / subtract whatever is needed for your particular design, and then ship it to us. Or are we ordering the kit through you, to be drop shipped to us, and then we all generate a list of any extra parts we need?
It's a nice kit in that it has Hammond xfmrs, and good caps and all, but the lack of front panel space makes it kind of limiting hence me trying to come up with a way we could at least get a little more tonal variation. It's more of a tube tweaker or circuit tweakers kit, than a players kit.
As an aside, and I mentioned something like this in another thread, have you thought of generating MOD boards yourself for peoples current amps? You could have a stock of semi-built turret boards and people could retrofit their current amps, or buy a beater amp and turn it into something nicer? You could either add the necessary tweaks yourself on demand (to handle the differences in tube driving) or just supply instructions?
Just a thought, I think I said I should start a service doing the mods myself for cost of parts plus a flat fee, but this would be more DIY for people and might be a revenue stream for you?
My idea is to provide information, design, and access to CE prices. I do not plan on making money from this. If forum members want to make it work all I will be is a middle man who orders and drop ships the shit to your door.
The lack of front panel room is part of the compromise we have in using a 400 dollar kit. You could upgrade to a 600 dollar Weber setup and get a fullz size amp with more flexibility but you wont get as nice tubes and trannies so there is more money needed say for all JJ tubes and nice Hammond trannies. I think this amp could b good for a grip and rip kind of approach. Get yourself a fuzz pedal, dial in the amp, and rip.
I have never thought of suppling Turret boards with prelayed out preamp circuits. I guess if someone asked I would do it. Given the custom work I do I am always coming up with new stuff, new layouts. If people wanted a board for the MOD kit I could supply that.
Mods for what? other amps?
No I meant a board for any amp, not necessarily a MOD amp.
I mean you already have a preamp there, and I imagine you have other designs that have more knobs, have your 'orange-esque' design or your 'sunn-ish' design or your 'dunwich homegrown' design, you can build the preamp, attach pots and valve sockets even, and offer that as a 'kit' for people to replace their own preamp with, and offer instructions on how to deal with the power supply, maybe even throw in a couple of strips and the parts for the PSU, caps or whatever. It was, like I say, just a thought to utilize what people have, whilst getting a better sounding amp. Sort of like Ceriatone where they offer a complete board, for other models.
That way people can take their beater Peavey, Crate, Bugera, B52, Sovtek or whatever and replace the preamp as a single board, and then add the power supply stuff.
That was what I had mentioned in the other thread the 'send me your amp and for $N of parts and a flat fee, I will turn it into a Sunn/Orange/Plexi' service I should, and maybe will, offer.
I think a lot of this stems from working mainly on British gear, where there are the pots, the tubes and a turret board or small PCB, wired to all of it. Rather than everything on a PCB as is the modern way. You think of all amps in that sense, throw away the PCB, put in proper valve sockets and pots, and hardwire it all together. You'd be supplying the PCB / turret board in the middle, the heart of it.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 15, 2011, 03:13:48 PM
No I meant a board for any amp, not necessarily a MOD amp.
I mean you already have a preamp there, and I imagine you have other designs that have more knobs, have your 'orange-esque' design or your 'sunn-ish' design or your 'dunwich homegrown' design, you can build the preamp, attach pots and valve sockets even, and offer that as a 'kit' for people to replace their own preamp with, and offer instructions on how to deal with the power supply, maybe even throw in a couple of strips and the parts for the PSU, caps or whatever. It was, like I say, just a thought to utilize what people have, whilst getting a better sounding amp. Sort of like Ceriatone where they offer a complete board, for other models.
That way people can take their beater Peavey, Crate, Bugera, B52, Sovtek or whatever and replace the preamp as a single board, and then add the power supply stuff.
That was what I had mentioned in the other thread the 'send me your amp and for $N of parts and a flat fee, I will turn it into a Sunn/Orange/Plexi' service I should, and maybe will, offer.
I think a lot of this stems from working mainly on British gear, where there are the pots, the tubes and a turret board or small PCB, wired to all of it. Rather than everything on a PCB as is the modern way. You think of all amps in that sense, throw away the PCB, put in proper valve sockets and pots, and hardwire it all together. You'd be supplying the PCB / turret board in the middle, the heart of it.
that would be pretty kool but i do not know how much time I would have to actually build boards as I have builds for a while (next month maybe till May) but if you want some designs to use I dont mind supplying some stuff.
I think a good thing to have would be a layout, rather than a schematic then, of whatever design you care to throw at people. A layout and a parts list, and most builders are set.
Then again, absolutely no-one else has chimed in here, so maybe everyone is happy with the MOD kit, or nobody is wanting to build their own amp.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 15, 2011, 03:36:29 PM
I think a good thing to have would be a layout, rather than a schematic then, of whatever design you care to throw at people. A layout and a parts list, and most builders are set.
Then again, absolutely no-one else has chimed in here, so maybe everyone is happy with the MOD kit, or nobody is wanting to build their own amp.
I can work with a general layout, with 2 pretubes you need atleast 1 for a phase inverter. So 2 gain stages + an LTPI or 2 gain stages into an AC coupled Cathodyne. a Bax stack is the best 2 knob tone stack but an FMV would work with fixed mids controls (barring the use a concentric pot). The cleanest build would be a single common cathode stage coupled to a DC follower into the tone stack into an LTPI while the Orange would have a lot of gain
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 15, 2011, 03:36:29 PM
Then again, absolutely no-one else has chimed in here, so maybe everyone is happy with the MOD kit, or nobody is wanting to build their own amp.
Apologies, I've been drinking.
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 14, 2011, 05:00:25 PM
I emailed them for the kit instructions in detail so I can see how easily this can be done.
That's probably what I'm most curious about at this point. If it's $400 and a bit more in passives, I'd really like to take a swing at one. If everything but the transformer isn't useable (or isn't usable in a best-case scenario) then I'd probably look at sourcing parts and digging up layouts.
I've considered Weber kits, but most people I personally know who've bult one just say that it was a good experience, but they're not in love with the amp. And it would bum me out to spend $600 and come out with a positive experience and mediocre amp.
But I truly appreciate the discussion, and look forward to electrocuting myself in the near future!
Quote from: xayk on October 15, 2011, 06:23:08 PM
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 15, 2011, 03:36:29 PM
Then again, absolutely no-one else has chimed in here, so maybe everyone is happy with the MOD kit, or nobody is wanting to build their own amp.
Apologies, I've been drinking.
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 14, 2011, 05:00:25 PM
I emailed them for the kit instructions in detail so I can see how easily this can be done.
That's probably what I'm most curious about at this point. If it's $400 and a bit more in passives, I'd really like to take a swing at one. If everything but the transformer isn't useable (or isn't usable in a best-case scenario) then I'd probably look at sourcing parts and digging up layouts.
I've considered Weber kits, but most people I personally know who've bult one just say that it was a good experience, but they're not in love with the amp. And it would bum me out to spend $600 and come out with a positive experience and mediocre amp.
But I truly appreciate the discussion, and look forward to electrocuting myself in the near future!
I think the trannies are perfectly good, exactly they are pretty damn nice for a kit. Prolly will not need too many extra passive to get this thing built. A layout is possible to come up with as long asu your good with the design of this amp.
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 14, 2011, 03:49:40 PM
here you go, this covers preamp up to PI, doesnt include FAC, should just build it out front. right click and hit view image or what nor
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2172/budgetorange.png
(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2172/budgetorange.png)
it looks a little complex but most of that shit gets mount on the pots (all of the components of the bax stack do) it can be done with terminal strips. It would really be a great simple build that destroys crap commercial amps
Am I wrong, or are the bias feed resistors incorrect? One is 220K and one is 100K, are they intentionally mismatched?
Quote from: SoupKitchen on October 17, 2011, 09:37:22 AM
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 14, 2011, 03:49:40 PM
here you go, this covers preamp up to PI, doesnt include FAC, should just build it out front. right click and hit view image or what nor
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2172/budgetorange.png
(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2172/budgetorange.png)
it looks a little complex but most of that shit gets mount on the pots (all of the components of the bax stack do) it can be done with terminal strips. It would really be a great simple build that destroys crap commercial amps
Am I wrong, or are the bias feed resistors incorrect? One is 220K and one is 100K, are they intentionally mismatched?
my bad, sloppy sloppy. yes they should both be 220k. No need for that kind of inbalance, you get plenty of asymmetry from the unequal halves of a phase inverter.
Budget doom head for $400? Used Laney GH50L's go for less than 400 on Ebay. Just sayin ;D
Quote from: liquidsmoke on October 19, 2011, 03:08:39 AM
Budget doom head for $400? Used Laney GH50L's go for less than 400 on Ebay. Just sayin ;D
i should amend the title
hand built PTP doom head for 400 dollars
You can actually modify the title, just modify your first post in the thread and change the Subject.
I'd suggest Self Built, rather than Hand Built, or give some other indicator that your getting a pile o' parts, not a working model for your money.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 19, 2011, 09:55:13 AM
You can actually modify the title, just modify your first post in the thread and change the Subject.
I'd suggest Self Built, rather than Hand Built, or give some other indicator that your getting a pile o' parts, not a working model for your money.
thanks and done, should I call you Hemi?
Get a room! ;D ;D ;D
dunwichamps, did you ever hear back from Mod regarding the layout/options they include?
Quote from: xayk on October 19, 2011, 01:28:56 PM
dunwichamps, did you ever hear back from Mod regarding the layout/options they include?
they gave me a sample set of incomplete instructions
i can email them to u if you want
it comes with a lot of shit but they didnt tell me everything
A layout could be created from the pdf they gave, it includes the mount holes for the terminal strips. all that would be needed is to calibrate the size of the chassis using the mounts for the transformers
I've always wanted an amp with a Trainwreck preamp into a Matamp power section...how doable would that be?
The power section is kind of standard, though i guess I don't really know Trainwrecks, sounds like you just want a T'wreck into an EL34 quad?
I know Ceriatone have boards for Trainwreck clones, you might want to start there, layout ideas, or just buy a board and add on for the extra pair of EL's?
(http://ceriatone.com/images/layoutPic/tWCloneLayout/ExpressionCeriatone.jpg)
Quote from: clockwork green on October 19, 2011, 05:48:53 PM
I've always wanted an amp with a Trainwreck preamp into a Matamp power section...how doable would that be?
That would be a nice combo. If I recall correctly Trainwrecks amps aren't being made anymore, so kinda have to go the clone route. Weren't they always lower wattage amps to begin with. Having a high wattage power section coupled with that unique hi gain preamp would be something.
that version of the wreck shown has a long tail pair phase inverter with 2 preamp tubes so in the MOD kit this is not realizable without tapping slots for new tubes.
The wreck expression has 3 gain stages into an LTPI if you modded the 3rd gain stage to be a driver a cathodyne then you could get the Orange PI/Power amp with a wreck-esque preamp. Of course you loose the mid control with just a B and T, could be done with concentric pots of course tho
Might it be better, to build that one on the $515 Marshall kit from Weber you mention? More holes for pots, more holes for tube, 100W for a power stack?
https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits_60b.htm#8cm100 (https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits_60b.htm#8cm100)
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 19, 2011, 06:50:25 PM
Might it be better, to build that one on the $515 Marshall kit from Weber you mention? More holes for pots, more holes for tube, 100W for a power stack?
https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits_60b.htm#8cm100 (https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits_60b.htm#8cm100)
yea better off doing that, better layout space.
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 19, 2011, 02:03:10 PM
they gave me a sample set of incomplete instructions
i can email them to u if you want
it comes with a lot of shit but they didnt tell me everything
A layout could be created from the pdf they gave, it includes the mount holes for the terminal strips. all that would be needed is to calibrate the size of the chassis using the mounts for the transformers
i'd be curious to take a look at them if you're of a mind. would the power section of a theoretical Orange clone be much different from what they're suggesting?
Quote from: xayk on October 22, 2011, 05:16:29 PM
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 19, 2011, 02:03:10 PM
they gave me a sample set of incomplete instructions
i can email them to u if you want
it comes with a lot of shit but they didnt tell me everything
A layout could be created from the pdf they gave, it includes the mount holes for the terminal strips. all that would be needed is to calibrate the size of the chassis using the mounts for the transformers
sure whats your email
They are most likely using a long tail pair so yes it would be different, as you would not get the same phase inverter overdrive characteristics
i'd be curious to take a look at them if you're of a mind. would the power section of a theoretical Orange clone be much different from what they're suggesting?
I always figured there'd be something unusual with the Matamp/Orange power section since they sound so much different than many amps in that they're so cold and dead sounding at low volume but become amazing when cranked. Many amps sound better when cranked but with Matamp's it's much more dramatic and they just sound so bad when quiet. I also just love the dynamics of some of the Trainwrecks I've heard...super touch responsive and since they go for upwards of $100,000 these days I'll never get to play a real one.