tried to google this (what a fucking nightmare!)
i'm assuming it has to do with everything considered, but what REALLY makes an orange (or it's variants) sound the way they do?
ability to tailor bass early in preamp, plate driven James/Bax stack, AC coupled cathodyne phase inverter, maybe El34s
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 12, 2011, 01:58:07 PM
ability to tailor bass early in preamp, plate driven James/Bax stack, AC coupled cathodyne phase inverter, maybe El34s
interesting. i would assume that everything you mentioned BUT the el34s are a factor. i've heard some oranges configured with different tubes, and while it sounded different, it still sounded orange.
yea thats why i gave you the maybe
I think its a secondary effect
I always figured it's just 'cause nothing rhymes with it.
But what do I know, I'm a drummer.
resident nerd at ur service, I built an OR 120 before (mods as well) so I know the circuit
It's the tone stack, alot flatter midrange, most Fender/marshall/vox amps dip in the midrange no matter what you do. Atleast thats the biggest difference between and orange and most other amps. And I'm sure its got to do also with all the other components in the amp too. but most of those increase the power coming out, not changing the sound coming in, 90% of the sound is all preamp and effects. The rest is MAGIC!
The flatter midrange, brought to you compliments of the Baxandall tonestack.
Don't some old Ampeg's use it too?
Yeah, the v Series, and I think the svt, but they had like a +/- 15 db midrange control.
Ampegs have bax stacks on a few models, the mid control is an unrelated and independent circuit which uses a small transformer for an inductor to get an LCR circuit for mids. Ampegs center frequency on the bax stack is much lower than the ones used in Matamp/EA/Orange. Bax stack is only flat when control are flat if you bring B and T up, then you start getting a mid cut while if you bring B and T down you get a mid boost (albeit with more signal loss)
Oranges also have a lot of extra bass early in the preamp, which is fine tuned with the bax and the FAC control. More bass = woolier clipping, darker feel as well. Also can cause blocking distortion if used too much.
AC coupled cathodyne phase inverter has significant "swirl", a phenomenon that occurs when you overdrive the phase inverter and causing freq doubling in the push pull stage. It can sound bad or good depending upon setup, but sometimes the freq doubling has a phaser esque effect. This can happen to other amps with AC cathodyne but nearly all Fender and Marshall amps us Long tail pairs which are not susceptible to this much.
Also first two stage have 220k plate resistors, larger than any other classic marshall or fender design. bigger plate resistor = more gain.
Its a mixture of a few things which gets you the orange overall sound. I built a lot of amps with bax stacks and its not just that which gets you orange
Wow, thanks Dun. It's quite awesome to have you around here.
I have designs for modded Bax stacks for mid control, you deviate from traditional designs but u get more flex. (mid shift and/or mids)
Orange is done tho, whatever is left is a rotted shell of what used to be a great amp company
nick, would just the pre-amp section of the or120 have some of the same magic?
yes, it would get you something, just building the first 2 stages would get you the wooly clipping and the bax stack. but without the cathodyne being included you would not get the whole thing, thats an important part of the amp sounding the way it does
Orange is done tho, whatever is left is a rotted shell of what used to be a great amp company
I am so glad to have an early specimen.
Quote from: RAGER on October 13, 2011, 11:35:20 AM
Orange is done tho, whatever is left is a rotted shell of what used to be a great amp company
I am so glad to have an early specimen.
its either that or clone
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 13, 2011, 09:45:17 AM
Orange is done tho, whatever is left is a rotted shell of what used to be a great amp company
Aren't they all. The big companies fuck up their designs with heaps of useless features or make ridiculously expensive anniversary re-issues of classic amps. On the other hand boutique builders just make clones of old designs, which isn't bad but not all that original either.
Quote from: Volume on October 14, 2011, 02:26:40 AM
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 13, 2011, 09:45:17 AM
Orange is done tho, whatever is left is a rotted shell of what used to be a great amp company
Aren't they all. The big companies fuck up their designs with heaps of useless features or make ridiculously expensive anniversary re-issues of classic amps. On the other hand boutique builders just make clones of old designs, which isn't bad but not all that original either.
Some builders do just clones, its a large share of the market but not all of us. I dont make any str8 clones (unless requested). They are not original but they are not clones. One thing prevalent in amp building is that companies (major amp builders) copied each other a lot. For example, Fender Bassman --> Marshall JTM 45 (Plexi, SL, SB) --> Traynor Bass Master --> Sunn Model T ---> Laney Supergroup ---> Sovtek Mig......
All of those amps are very very similar, just some minor tweaks here and there but the entire circuit was just lifted each time and changed by 10% then sold.
Yeah, I know. I was just exaggerating a bit to make my point. ;)
And don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for boutique builders.
Quote from: Volume on October 14, 2011, 03:26:16 AM
Yeah, I know. I was just exaggerating a bit to make my point. ;)
And don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for boutique builders.
no worries i was not offended or anything.
its a tough business to be really innovative, best to be well built than anything else
It's harder still to be original, when most players are such traditionalists. Not strictly fair, but you only get one type of preamp tube and four types of piwer tube to play with, unless your name is Eric ;D
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 12, 2011, 03:49:27 PM
resident nerd at ur service, I built an OR 120 before (mods as well) so I know the circuit
hey chief, i was wondering, just ballpark,,What is the cost of the electrical components for one of these OR120 type circuits that you built. from reviewing tons of videos. i see orange amps a lot by all genres of performers.
TIA :)
Quote from: jibberish on October 15, 2011, 12:54:00 AM
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 12, 2011, 03:49:27 PM
resident nerd at ur service, I built an OR 120 before (mods as well) so I know the circuit
hey chief, i was wondering, just ballpark,,What is the cost of the electrical components for one of these OR120 type circuits that you built. from reviewing tons of videos. i see orange amps a lot by all genres of performers.
TIA :)
You can get a Weber kit for 600 or so. The Orange kit is a tough one tho, its just too small of a chassis and not the best layout. I recommend building it out of the 8cm100 kit (jcm 800), adjusting the layout and just ask for the eyelet board from the 60100 kit. Ill help you with whatever ideas you need.
thanks for that and that little tip.
i've been meditating on custom amp layout visuals. the mainboard always looks nasty. meditating on materials right now for the mainboard. this is pre-PCB stuff, so that really opens up the range of possible materials.
what, if anything besides specific winding ratios and taps, makes a power amp tranny different? or what is the key feature(s) that a tranny has to have to be power amp worthy. shear capacity and the correct windings/taps?
thanks again, and dont fear the math if you need to really explain anything.
i've also reverse engineered circuits for fun and profit, and these amp circuits have pretty low component counts, so that creates boatloads of freedom also.
IMO right angles in wires causes a restricton, work hardens the flexxed area, stresses the metal and overall impedes electron flow. wired a few panels and rebuilds (im automation engineer) and never use right angles when avoidable. The next best thing is to roll your wire around a cylindrical jig(ie screwdriver shaft etc) to form a tight curve 90ยบ, like a fillet has a radius. there is probably a spec on any gauge of wire for minimum radius. why? stress when bent too far and a 90 has technicallly no radius.
cable/wire dressing = pro. consistent insulation trim lengths(to th eshort side), quick in-for-the-kill soldering to make bright nice solders. use solvent to clean every last bit of rosin or soldering funk. choose harmonious wire insulation colors and patterns.
people just shit when they saw my panels. inside was nicer than the front. never use rebent wires for show, total image
ive been meditating for a while on these amps..establishing a direction..getting close.
im mad scientist and not afraid to try way different ideas on things
Given the current levels in an amp, there is not much restriction with a right angle bend, the wire I use is rated up to 7-16A of current but you only expect milliamps in the power supply, with at most amps in the heaters but heater wiring is a heavy twisted pair so you cant get 90 degree bends just short radiuses
For turret boards I use 1/8" garolite from Watts Tube Audio with their turret mounter. You can make nice custom design using a layout editor. My recommendation to do it that way, its nearly bullet proof when done right
For trannies you want to know its rated power versus frequency response, primary impedance, max DC bias, output impedance, and sometimes fabrication methods
I use a split buss ground scheme, preamp grounds are separated from the power amp grounds/transformer center taps. Preamp grounds for each stages ground are brought back to a local star point then the star is brought to a buss of tinned heavy gauge wire which is crimped and soldered to a spade then attached to the chassis near the input jack with star nuts.
Power amp grounds are all brought to a star near the PT bolts but not on a pt bolt
I never have problems with ground loops or heater hum, virtually done exist in my amps given the grounding and heater methods I use
..taking notes.... :)
edit: btw, to me talk is cheaper, so that's when to get all the godzilla mistakes and misimpressions out of the way :), so get ready for some potentially ridiculous questions as i figure out the envelope. thx again for taking your time.
no problemo
heres the latest build you can clearly see the two ground stars
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8645/img0163wh.jpg
its a huge pic so click the link then zoom around
more shit here
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/294078_10150456172569552_403563559551_11275200_513150146_n.jpg)
Those green yellow pairs are the AC heaters, MUST MUST be twisted tighly and wired so that when signals cross them its a 90 degree so they do not couple into the preamp esp. near V1.
(http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3470/img0168an.jpg)
nice pic. i love looking at resistors, wanna eat em or something. ok i see how you did that one star on the threaded lug. do you run signal wires right angles to ac supply wires when they have to cross? lot more noise induction from parallel power wire.
nothing personal or anything, but that mainboard right there is what i want to change the look-layout and materials used. yours is layed out with care i can see even by how all the wires are. but do you see how the maximum neatness and sexiness is limited with what you have to use there. im not using a generic pegboard. there are a bunch of solder um terminal..pcb rivets wtf they are called, pins, lugs etc etc that can all be installed in a much sexier base plate. anyway...that's what im thinking about first uber sexy redesign of the materials used.
other material can be used. acrylic, maybe an opaque one out of resin...w/e thats the things im kicking around.
wiring..i really have yet to see anything even close to what i have in mind :) very encouraging there.
but i need to feel the circuits first to avoid obvious ignorant blunders.
does orange have a 1 watt version but with the cool tone stacks etc you explained above for that sound still?
do you consider power sections swappable in th ebig picture?
like that cap array on the rotary switch, passive HP filtering..stick that on anything.. can the main amp more-or-less be swapped out too?
or is half the magic in those specific tubes in the power section and other tubes just cant make the magic like a 1 watt tub
ok, i see you answered my 90 degree question while i was typing too
edit: ya im totally enjoying looking at these pics..labor of love..you sweated a lot of details. "good shit maynerd!".
Quote from: jibberish on October 17, 2011, 10:40:14 PM
nice pic. i love looking at resistors, wanna eat em or something. ok i see how you did that one star on the threaded lug. do you run signal wires right angles to ac supply wires when they have to cross? lot more noise induction from parallel power wire.
nothing personal or anything, but that mainboard right there is what i want to change the look-layout and materials used. yours is layed out with care i can see even by how all the wires are. but do you see how the maximum neatness and sexiness is limited with what you have to use there. im not using a generic pegboard. there are a bunch of solder um terminal..pcb rivets wtf they are called, pins, lugs etc etc that can all be installed in a much sexier base plate. anyway...that's what im thinking about first uber sexy redesign of the materials used.
other material can be used. acrylic, maybe an opaque one out of resin...w/e thats the things im kicking around.
wiring..i really have yet to see anything even close to what i have in mind :) very encouraging there.
but i need to feel the circuits first to avoid obvious ignorant blunders.
does orange have a 1 watt version but with the cool tone stacks etc you explained above for that sound still?
do you consider power sections swappable in th ebig picture?
like that cap array on the rotary switch, passive HP filtering..stick that on anything.. can the main amp more-or-less be swapped out too?
ill do my best to follow all your Qs.
As far as the main board goes that works for me but if you do it a new way let me know
1W output power? is that what your referring 2? no orange only made 50Ws i think back in the day for minimum but you can do 1W outputs, its not going to sound the same
That filter can be swapped anywhere really
ok, thx..ya i blitzed you pretty good. just throwing ideas around. :) i have enough to think about for now.
go do some homework now....fill in more info...
i'd buy your fuckin amp :)
Quote from: jibberish on October 17, 2011, 10:59:48 PM
ok, thx..ya i blitzed you pretty good. just throwing ideas around. :) i have enough to think about for now.
go do some homework now....fill in more info...
i'd buy your fuckin amp :)
thanks man, i hope you can learn and build one, nothing like that feeling
if you need some ideas on a schematic let me know, i can provide you with info
Didn't you use what looked like a camo patterned turretboard for that recent build? To sort of answer the jibberish Q. I know turretboards sells that kind of thing, to us mere mortals ;)
http://turretboards.com/circuit_board_material.htm (http://turretboards.com/circuit_board_material.htm)
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 17, 2011, 11:17:46 PM
Didn't you use what looked like a camo patterned turretboard for that recent build? To sort of answer the jibberish Q. I know turretboards sells that kind of thing, to us mere mortals ;)
http://turretboards.com/circuit_board_material.htm (http://turretboards.com/circuit_board_material.htm)
I buy it from Watts Tube Audio, I like his turrets and they solder well but neone can get it from him or newhere else 2, nothing secret there. I am going to switch to black i didnt like the camo color there
i found a schematic for Master Volume 120 watter
kinda interesting take on a matamp but not a clone persay
all those nuts inside the chassis. do you put loctite or a dab of fingernail polish? i dont see any thread lock stuff.
those can fall off after a while. lock washers or not. just a thought. i was taught to secure any nuts, standoffs, w/e threaded crap inside housing assemblies. last thing you need is a nut to drop into the wrong place. no excuse for that preventable mishap.
Quote from: jibberish on October 18, 2011, 11:26:49 AM
all those nuts inside the chassis. do you put loctite or a dab of fingernail polish? i dont see any thread lock stuff.
those can fall off after a while. lock washers or not. just a thought. i was taught to secure any nuts, standoffs, w/e threaded crap inside housing assemblies. last thing you need is a nut to drop into the wrong place. no excuse for that preventable mishap.
nope, and no body does.
Buttpussy 4 lyfe
Quote from: SunnO))) on October 18, 2011, 12:04:07 PM
Buttpussy 4 lyfe
amp design is kool, interesting, few things i would change personally but overall its nice
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 18, 2011, 12:24:11 PM
Quote from: SunnO))) on October 18, 2011, 12:04:07 PM
Buttpussy 4 lyfe
amp design is kool, interesting, few things i would change personally but overall its nice
now, what kind of tone stack do they use on that amp? just a standard "fender" type?
also, not to highjack this thread, but i've been sitting here all morning trying to think up a way to "fake" a bax stack with a standard 3 knobber. could you just max the mids and go from there?
Quote from: justinhedrick on October 18, 2011, 12:41:25 PM
Quote from: dunwichamps on October 18, 2011, 12:24:11 PM
Quote from: SunnO))) on October 18, 2011, 12:04:07 PM
Buttpussy 4 lyfe
amp design is kool, interesting, few things i would change personally but overall its nice
now, what kind of tone stack do they use on that amp? just a standard "fender" type?
also, not to highjack this thread, but i've been sitting here all morning trying to think up a way to "fake" a bax stack with a standard 3 knobber. could you just max the mids and go from there?
a FMV cant do it, theres always a mid cut. If you want to see that schematic, you will have to find yourself i dont want to get involved with any shitstorm that brings down
You can rewire it, but you can't fake it ;D
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 18, 2011, 04:37:00 PM
You can rewire it, but you can't fake it ;D
just ask my wife ;) :D ;D
you can replace the mids control with a shift control it can easily be rewired on a FMV based amp
I suppose I should have prefaced that with it can be done easily as long as your pots aren't mounted on a PCB
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 18, 2011, 05:17:35 PM
I suppose I should have prefaced that with it can be done easily as long as your pots aren't mounted on a PCB
hmm. i have a VTM 60. pretty sure they are! oh well.
yea dont even bother
Quote from: justinhedrick on October 18, 2011, 05:23:32 PM
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 18, 2011, 05:17:35 PM
I suppose I should have prefaced that with it can be done easily as long as your pots aren't mounted on a PCB
hmm. i have a VTM 60. pretty sure they are! oh well.
It's probably do-able, but y'know expert tweaky kind of do-able. Peavey are pretty good with schematics and PCB maps, you could probably desolder the pots from the board, build the bax stack, and re-attach it to the appropriate spot on the PCB, hopefully reversable, but not for the faint of heart.
Get your wife to do it ;D
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 18, 2011, 06:05:01 PM
Quote from: justinhedrick on October 18, 2011, 05:23:32 PM
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 18, 2011, 05:17:35 PM
I suppose I should have prefaced that with it can be done easily as long as your pots aren't mounted on a PCB
hmm. i have a VTM 60. pretty sure they are! oh well.
It's probably do-able, but y'know expert tweaky kind of do-able. Peavey are pretty good with schematics and PCB maps, you could probably desolder the pots from the board, build the bax stack, and re-attach it to the appropriate spot on the PCB, hopefully reversable, but not for the faint of heart.
Get your wife to do it ;D
only bother it if you got some skilzzz. Otherwise its going to be a mess.
I hate it when Peavey draw schematics like they are in real life, splitting it by the board :(
Look at the Classic 30 schematics, and compare it to the Classic 50, legibility please.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on October 18, 2011, 07:43:38 PM
I hate it when Peavey draw schematics like they are in real life, splitting it by the board :(
Look at the Classic 30 schematics, and compare it to the Classic 50, legibility please.
:-\
(http://images.productserve.com/preview/376/119500074.jpg)
Let me know how it works out with your vtm60. Might want to do this to mine.
I had a schematic for it too.... I think its gone though. way to fucking complicated.
Hey Hemi and Sunno, and anybody else who builds amps, where did you guys aquire this skill? Did you have some kind of training or self taught by diggin around in amps? I see alot of terminology and experience being thrown around that makes me think formal training.
Quote from: bass sic on October 19, 2011, 10:11:01 AM
Hey Hemi and Sunno, and anybody else who builds amps, where did you guys aquire this skill? Did you have some kind of training or self taught by diggin around in amps? I see alot of terminology and experience being thrown around that makes me think formal training.
So I have formal training (BS in EE and getting my PhD in EE) but before I got heavily into EE undergrad I was already learning how to build. I picked up a kit from AX84 and thats how i started
more info in this interview I gave
https://thesodashop.wordpress.com/2011/07/14/check-out-dunwich-amps/
Simultaneously, a bit of both. I was digging into peoples Hi-Fi's from an early age, I had a soldering iron before I turned 10, fixing peoples stuff up by the time I was 12-13. I guess it was on the cards ;D
Passed my music exam in high school by repairing all the broken keyboards, headphones and wall warts in the dept. Left school, straight to work as an EE apprentice in military work, whilst doing my BSc in EEE and being a road-dog running sound, lights and fixing up backline after hours, worked weekends in a music store, sales and repairs, and DJ'ing a club at night.
Looking back, I wonder how I had all the energy ;D
I'm more of a repair and improvement guy than a builder, but if you mod enough amps, you have a basis for building because they all stem from the old datasheets.
As to technical terms, years of explaining things to musicians, means I do try and keep it in English with as few acronyms as possible, but I imagine I sometimes slip up. ::)
No shit? Herb and the internet have taught me everything I know about amps. I just started fiddling with pedals, then amps, fixing them and whatnot with decent success rates.
Luthiery is all self-taught. You fix a couple hundred guitars for friends, a few hundred more for paying customers, you get pretty proficient.
Books and friends, and the internet.
Ill go to school once Im proficient in the electronics field, that way I dont struggle.
Honestly man, school is overrated. I learned far more from working in repair shops with other techs, than I was ever taught in college. If you really want to learn get a job in a repair shop not necessarily amp repair, just electronics of anykind, though in this age of surface mount technology, and board level repair, rather than component level, it's becoming a dying art. Every guy I worked with in the shop I worked at over here had been trained in the military, I was the only guy with a college degree working as a tech. Every tech I worked with has taught me something.
If McNeece had still been your local guy, I'd have told you to beg the guy to let you work with him, for free even, just do the dogsbody work, changing input jacks or replacing pots, and you'll learn something.
I think I may attempt One of those diy pedal builds, where they send ya everything in a bag and a schematic. I have some very limited soldering experience, so I shouldn't have too hard of a time. I just need to figure out which pedal to do.
I have learned from school, my own research, and another fellow builder.
School has taught me a lot about fundamentals of devices but they usually do not do enough to get you to design circuits
My current research has nothing to do with circuits, its all nanoscale physics/single devices, memory.
Quote from: bass sic on October 19, 2011, 03:39:46 PM
I think I may attempt One of those diy pedal builds, where they send ya everything in a bag and a schematic. I have some very limited soldering experience, so I shouldn't have too hard of a time. I just need to figure out which pedal to do.
yea BYOC or GGG, easy as pie. They provide all the info u need to build a pedal
Yeah either of those are a great start, started with a few muffs from GGG myself. I'd also recommend trying something easy like a super hard on perf or veroboard and then a fuzz face. The fuzz face is cool for experimenting with too so many different variations of the same circuit floating around the net (google image search is your friend!). If anyone wants to start a DIY pedal thread I'm sure there's loads of us who be able to help out with any questions.
This thread has me seriously considering a self built amp in my future.
Quote from: moose23 on October 19, 2011, 04:03:33 PM
Yeah either of those are a great start, started with a few muffs from GGG myself. I'd also recommend trying something easy like a super hard on perf or veroboard and then a fuzz face. The fuzz face is cool for experimenting with too so many different variations of the same circuit floating around the net (google image search is your friend!). If anyone wants to start a DIY pedal thread I'm sure there's loads of us who be able to help out with any questions.
This thread has me seriously considering a self built amp in my future.
right on, the more the better