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Anyone have any recommendations? I know next to nothing about solid state amps aside from the shitty little low wattage ones I had in the past and bass combos. I'm looking for something that doesn't break up at higher volumes and has enough gain that I won't need to run a distortion pedal into it so at least on the distortion level of a Laney GH, Peavey 5150, etc... I'm hoping to discover something cheap on the used market that doesn't sound super fizzy and crappy.

Ampeg VH-140C

+1 on the Ampeg.

Randall ;D

Randall RG100ES is worth a go.

The Dime Amp D100 made by Dean might be worth looking into also. It's pretty cheap new (and you could probably find one used) and the demo videos I've watched of it don't sound bad. I mean if you're already open to solid state amps and looking for that high gain sound, that's exactly what it's shooting for. You could always pry the cheesy logo off the front if it rubs you the wrong way.

try the peavey xxl. they sound pretty good. they sound even better w/ a graphic EQ in the loop cutting some of the high mids.

Crate G130CXL or any G130 I guess if you don't need chorus.

It's pretty much the same as the Ampeg, but usually cheaper.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 29, 2011, 03:50:02 PM
Crate G130CXL or any G130 I guess if you don't need chorus.

It's pretty much the same as the Ampeg, but usually cheaper.

i've heard this a lot, but i've never seen anything to back it up.

Bring through your Ampeg sometime, we can A/B it with Freightshakin Bob's Crate. I've played bass through that sucker and it's hell of a loud. We had a death metal band in the practice space, one guitatr was using a Peavey Rockmaster tube head through 2 4x12's and that Crate drowned it out, with no pedals, and sounded better doing it, and that's only one channel (65W) you need two cabs, or a cab wired stereo to get the whole enchilada.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 29, 2011, 04:04:04 PM
Bring through your Ampeg sometime, we can A/B it with Freightshakin Bob's Crate. I've played bass through that sucker and it's hell of a loud. We had a death metal band in the practice space, one guitatr was using a Peavey Rockmaster tube head through 2 4x12's and that Crate drowned it out, with no pedals, and sounded better doing it, and that's only one channel (65W) you need two cabs, or a cab wired stereo to get the whole enchilada.

i don't have an ampeg . . . i just always see those crates for sale sometimes in pawn shops for dirt cheap and i know that cannibal corpse cut one of their first records on one, so . . .

Maybe you should pick one up, maybe you'd like it.

I should fix that second channel on it, and run it through both my 2x15's, that would be fun. ;D

I read some reviews of the VH-140C and they confirm that it's a great sounding amp as do the youtube clips I've seen/heard. I will also investigate the other amps mentioned, thanks everyone!

Quote from: Instant Dan on August 29, 2011, 01:55:34 PM
Randall ;D

RG100ES? Is that 100 watts?

edit: I just read that it's 150 watts and 8 ohms, no 16 ohm jack. Arg.

So apparently the Ampeg VH-140C is a stereo amp and as I understand it if you only use one output(like if you are playing it through one cab) you only get half the power...?? Lame.

Yeah that's probably for the chorus. A stereo 4x12 or dual 2x12s would solve that problem  ;)

Quote from: bitter end on August 31, 2011, 03:39:48 AM
Yeah that's probably for the chorus. A stereo 4x12 or dual 2x12s would solve that problem  ;)

Annoying and now I'm reading that it only has 8 ohm outputs and of course my cab is 16. Fuck me.

I guess Ampeg made a VH-150 which isn't stereo for a short time but it seems to be very rare. Arg.

Quote from: Corey Y on August 29, 2011, 02:49:01 PM
The Dime Amp D100 made by Dean might be worth looking into also. It's pretty cheap new (and you could probably find one used) and the demo videos I've watched of it don't sound bad. I mean if you're already open to solid state amps and looking for that high gain sound, that's exactly what it's shooting for. You could always pry the cheesy logo off the front if it rubs you the wrong way.

The Randall RH and RX amps are even cheaper. I suspect that most of these sound the same or would be fine on clean with the right pedal... and then I'm searching for the right metal pedal, again. Arg, been down that route before, my Laney sounds great without one, at lower volumes anyway. I guess Crowbar used a Metalzone(yuk) into a Randall RG in the '90s and now use that new Dean Dime model. Every fucking Youtube clip of any of these solid state amps is someone playing Pantera or death metal, it's time to go play some amps myself.

Quote from: liquidsmoke on August 31, 2011, 03:00:15 AM
So apparently the Ampeg VH-140C is a stereo amp and as I understand it if you only use one output(like if you are playing it through one cab) you only get half the power...?? Lame.

I think I stated that about the Crate G130 as well, but don't knock it 'til you try it, even on half power they are f--in loud. Crate released a bunch of stereo 4x12's, and it's a pretty easy mod to do to your own cabs for full power.

Remember solid state only has a minimum impedance, it doesn't do impedance matching. So as most heads are 4 ohm minimum (some are 8 ohm) you'll get about 2/3 power into an 8 ohm cab and 1/2 power into a 16 ohm cab.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 31, 2011, 08:03:44 AM

Quote from: liquidsmoke on August 31, 2011, 03:00:15 AM
So apparently the Ampeg VH-140C is a stereo amp and as I understand it if you only use one output(like if you are playing it through one cab) you only get half the power...?? Lame.

I think I stated that about the Crate G130 as well, but don't knock it 'til you try it, even on half power they are f--in loud. Crate released a bunch of stereo 4x12's, and it's a pretty easy mod to do to your own cabs for full power.

Remember solid state only has a minimum impedance, it doesn't do impedance matching. So as most heads are 4 ohm minimum (some are 8 ohm) you'll get about 2/3 power into an 8 ohm cab and 1/2 power into a 16 ohm cab.

Thanks for the info. It just sucks that I will have to get a different cab just to use one of these amps although I am thinking about getting a different one anyway. I could use my bandmate's 8 ohm bass cabs temporarily though(ding!).

Sorry, I'm missing why you need to get another cab? I've said, loud as fuck, one channel into 8 ohm, easy to mod cabs to be stereo if you want full power, there's no issue is there?

Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 31, 2011, 03:46:40 PM
Sorry, I'm missing why you need to get another cab? I've said, loud as fuck, one channel into 8 ohm, easy to mod cabs to be stereo if you want full power, there's no issue is there?

My cab is 16 ohms.

Quote from: liquidsmoke on September 01, 2011, 12:13:25 AM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 31, 2011, 03:46:40 PM
Sorry, I'm missing why you need to get another cab? I've said, loud as fuck, one channel into 8 ohm, easy to mod cabs to be stereo if you want full power, there's no issue is there?

My cab is 16 ohms.

Rewire it to four ohms.

Quote from: SunnO))) on September 01, 2011, 12:15:31 AM

Quote from: liquidsmoke on September 01, 2011, 12:13:25 AM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on August 31, 2011, 03:46:40 PM
Sorry, I'm missing why you need to get another cab? I've said, loud as fuck, one channel into 8 ohm, easy to mod cabs to be stereo if you want full power, there's no issue is there?

My cab is 16 ohms.

Rewire it to four ohms.

That's possible? I'm like a new born baby when it comes to most of this stuff. Why 4 instead of 8?

It's got four ohm speakers, or 16 ohm speakers...

4 ohm drivers for 16 ohms:
Series 4 + 4 = 8
Series 4 + 4 = 8
Series 8 + 8 = 16

16 ohm drivers for 16 ohms:
Parallel 16 + 16 = 8
Parallel 16 + 16 = 8
Series 8 + 8 = 16

4 ohm drivers for 4 ohms:
Series 4 + 4 = 8
Series 4 + 4 = 8
Parallel 8 + 8 = 4

16 ohm drivers for 4 ohms:
Parallel 16 + 16 = 8
Parallel 16 + 16 = 8
Parallel 8 + 8 = 4

Easy enough?

Quote from: SunnO))) on September 01, 2011, 01:24:47 AM
It's got four ohm speakers, or 16 ohm speakers...

4 ohm drivers for 16 ohms:
Series 4 + 4 = 8
Series 4 + 4 = 8
Series 8 + 8 = 16

16 ohm drivers for 16 ohms:
Parallel 16 + 16 = 8
Parallel 16 + 16 = 8
Series 8 + 8 = 16

4 ohm drivers for 4 ohms:
Series 4 + 4 = 8
Series 4 + 4 = 8
Parallel 8 + 8 = 4

16 ohm drivers for 4 ohms:
Parallel 16 + 16 = 8
Parallel 16 + 16 = 8
Parallel 8 + 8 = 4

Easy enough?

I don't really get it but the good news is that it's doable and my Laney can run 4 ohms too.

Would my Laney sound any different running through my 2x12 at 4 ohms is another question however. Anyone?

Can it push four ohms and are the speakers in your 2x12 different than the cab you usually run it through?

Quote from: At_Giza on September 02, 2011, 03:05:28 AM
Can it push four ohms and are the speakers in your 2x12 different than the cab you usually run it through?

My Laney does have an output vagina labeled 4 ohms. The speakers in my 2x12 are the speakers that are always in my 2x12 and it's my only cab although I have access to 2 15" bass cabs at the moment.








So yesterday morning I played my buddy's Peavey 5150 through my cab one more time before I had to give it back to him and then I hooked my Laney back up. Wow. The 5150 is capable of producing thicker heavier tones but it's more mushy and shitty sounding. The Laney is tight and clear yet still very warm sounding in comparison. My AB test earlier was with bass cabs which made the amps sound pretty much exactly the same which kind of sucks. Guitar speakers let amps really sing. There is no way in hell any solid state amp will be able to in come close to touching quality of tones the GH50L can produce. Now I'm thinking I should get a GH100L or the Tony Iommi variation so I can get the same sweet metal crunch but with more headroom although the 120 watt 5150 would also distort excessively at high volumes but not as soon. Part of it could be my G tuned Epiphone Junior just being too thick toned... but the thing was only $88 brand new so how could that be? Isn't the wood probably shit? I have no idea what it's made out of. Some of the reviews online are stellar though.


I realize that lately I've probably seemed like a special ed kid who just got into playing guitar but I haven't really played a lot of different guitars and amps and what not. I have my gear, do my thing and just get lost in my music. I also have a really shitty memory admittingly.

Have you thought of just adding a power amp, and using the Slave Out on your GH50L? Something like GH50L and 2x12 and Slave Out to power amp and other cabs.

On a tube amp, it's impedance matched, so you should hear no difference rewiring your cab, so don't bother.

Also if a 2x12 is your only cab, I don't think you need more amp, you need more cab. Even a 50W tube amp is capable of driving a full stack.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 02, 2011, 10:19:20 AM

Also if a 2x12 is your only cab, I don't think you need more amp, you need more cab. Even a 50W tube amp is capable of driving a full stack.

I think you would be wise to add another cab. 2x12 or 4x12. Also, you may want to find a nice transparent overdrive like a tubescreamer variant. Boss SD1 or digitech bad monkeys are good bets and cheap. At the very least, they could help you get that extra push from the amp w/out having to crank all of the controls.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 02, 2011, 10:19:20 AM
Have you thought of just adding a power amp, and using the Slave Out on your GH50L? Something like GH50L and 2x12 and Slave Out to power amp and other cabs.

On a tube amp, it's impedance matched, so you should hear no difference rewiring your cab, so don't bother.

Also if a 2x12 is your only cab, I don't think you need more amp, you need more cab. Even a 50W tube amp is capable of driving a full stack.

I never thought about it but I can use my band mate's Sunn Slave head, I just don't know how many ohms it puts out. It has 2 speaker outputs and says it's 200 watts. It also says "class 2" but I have no idea what that means. The front of the unit is white and black and I think it's from the '70s. It looks like this one- http://www.krazykatmusic.com/?p=1521

I'm assuming I would run the Laney's slave out into the Sunn's line in jack in the front. Would my Laney also need to be plugged into a cab or is that not necessary when slaving it out?

Regarding rewiring my cab(16 ohms), that would be to use it with a solid state amp that isn't 16. I would still want to use it with my Laney directly to play heavy rock type stuff though.

About needing more cab, my 2x12 is plenty loud and I am also running a bass combo to add more crushing lows to the band's sound because we are a 2 piece. I really don't want to be lugging a zillion cabs around for live gigs. I should not need to ever be louder than the drums on stage at a gig but if I do the 2x12 is fine for that. I do want more clarity though, my Laney starts to break up(beyond the preamp distortion levels I use for a heavy metal tone) between 2 and 3 on the master volume. At 6 or 7 it's Weedeater on crack. If that Sunn Slave is clear with lots of headroom I can see it working out quite well with my Laney's preamp.

(http://sunn.ampage.org/site/museum/misc/concslave.jpg)

If it is indeed a concert slave.

As it's solid state, the lower the impedance the more power, so a 4 ohm cab would be best, but an 8 ohm cab is fine, and even a 16 ohm will probably be plenty loud.

You must ALWAYS connect a tube head to a speaker cab before turning it on  >:(

The only way around this would be to open the amp and pull out ALL the power tubes, or use a load resistor (giant brick thing) (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=019-020), or have the amp mod'd to cut the B+ supply to the power tubes.

Quote from: bitter end on September 02, 2011, 10:34:39 AM
I think you would be wise to add another cab. 2x12 or 4x12.

For more volume or so that each speaker receives less watts and doesn't break up as much? I'm good on volume.

Quote from: bitter end on September 02, 2011, 10:34:39 AM
Also, you may want to find a nice transparent overdrive like a tubescreamer variant. Boss SD1 or digitech bad monkeys are good bets and cheap. At the very least, they could help you get that extra push from the amp w/out having to crank all of the controls.

I'm not sure what the difference between using both of the Laney's distortion knobs on or near 10 vs an overdrive pedal and somewhat less Laney distortion. My assumption is that the problem is mainly the power tubes causing excessive break up. I can also get the amp to break up while not using as much preamp distortion but it doesn't sound metal enough, it sounds more heavy rock. With a fuzz in front that breakup sound godly when I'm going for that type of tone.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 02, 2011, 09:31:12 PM
(http://sunn.ampage.org/site/museum/misc/concslave.jpg)

If it is indeed a concert slave.

As it's solid state, the lower the impedance the more power, so a 4 ohm cab would be best, but an 8 ohm cab is fine, and even a 16 ohm will probably be plenty loud.

You must ALWAYS connect a tube head to a speaker cab before turning it on  >:(

The only way around this would be to open the amp and pull out ALL the power tubes, or use a load resistor (giant brick thing) (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=019-020), or have the amp mod'd to cut the B+ supply to the power tubes.

Ah okay. So would the master volume knob on the Laney effect the tone going through the Sunn Slave? Because of how I don't like how the Laney breaks up at high volumes I would have it a lot more quiet than the Sunn which would render the cab the Laney would be hooked up to more or less useless, well I guess it would keep the Laney from blowing up but that's it. If I only wanted to use the Laney for this metal band and the Sunn thing was to work out well I'd probably just remove the power tubes but because I also like using it for heavy rock sometimes I would not want to do that. Unless I'm not understanding any of this.

(http://sunn.ampage.org/site/museum/misc/concslave.jpg)


The Sunn Slave at my place right now looks somewhat different from this one and says 200 watts on the back.

(http://www.krazykatmusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/PICT3496.jpg)

Same name, different slave. 200@2ohms, about 140 into 4 ohms.

If you're looking for more headroom, less "FUCKIN' CRANKED" sound, less farty hissy distortion, you ought to add a bass cab into the mix, ditch that combo, and use the slave from the Laney to the slave/bass cab, but run something between the slave out and the input of the slave. A Sansamp bass/Para DI or something.

We need to hear the Laney, I think you may truly have a weird issue going on. Find a comparison on a song or something? My AOR sounded like my 800, only shittier, with slightly more gain, and a worthless bass boost. Dragonaut was a Laney. Shit, most of Holy Mountain was a Laney AOR...

Later Concert Slaves would do 200W into 2 ohms, you probably have a later one.

More speakers might mean more volume when your amp is at 2 or 3, which would mean you have your headroom, or more sensitive speakers, it's something to think about.

The Slave has it's own front panel gain knob, which means you can leave the Laney on 2 or 3 and turn the Sunn up. You could also use it to help analyse your 'do I need a 100W amp' issue, if the Laney through the Sunn still breaks up at the same settings that the Laney on it's own, then you're dealing with preamp distortion, you need to put smoother preamp tubes (less gainy) in your Laney. If you can crank the Laney way past where it normally breaks up, and the speakers connected to the Sunn don't break up, then yes you had hit power tube distortion and a 100W amp might help you.

Yes, if you want to run just the Sunn amp connected to your 2x12 and use the Laney as a preamp, please pull out those power tubes, if it's easy for you to do. Later on I'd suggest a load box, or a B+ mod, just so you have the option of switching back to the Laney as a backup (or you could carry those tubes with you everywhere).

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 02, 2011, 10:17:39 PM
The Slave has it's own front panel gain knob, which means you can leave the Laney on 2 or 3 and turn the Sunn up. You could also use it to help analyse your 'do I need a 100W amp' issue, if the Laney through the Sunn still breaks up at the same settings that the Laney on it's own, then you're dealing with preamp distortion, you need to put smoother preamp tubes (less gainy) in your Laney.

12AT7/12AU7, but the AU may be too low gain for you...

Oh, and at Sunn, he might have a line in on the combo, that he can connect to the Slave Out of the Laney, I'm guessing right now he just splits the signal elsewhere ??? Even a combo run with flat EQ and set for active bass would be a fair approximation.

You also want to ascertain whether that slave out is line or low level before you hook it into a pedal.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 02, 2011, 10:23:36 PM
Oh, and at Sunn, he might have a line in on the combo, that he can connect to the Slave Out of the Laney, I'm guessing right now he just splits the signal elsewhere ??? Even a combo run with flat EQ and set for active bass would be a fair approximation.

You also want to ascertain whether that slave out is line or low level before you hook it into a pedal.

Works fine from the DI of the 800, it was an experiment, it had pretty pleasing results...

LH50 is switchable level, Marshall's are low level only which is no good for rack FX unfortunately.

Still, lets try and figure out whether the preamp is too high gain, or the amp is too quiet when clean.

I can relate to not wanting to lug too many cabs, but after a bunch of shows where you get frustratedby your sound, or volume, sometimes you realize you just need to drag all that shit to be happy.

I've been thinking about doing the next tour on bicycle, and converting my EV cab into a bike trailer ;D

Thanks for the info and ideas guys.

Right now I'm using an ABY type splitter box to sent signals to my Laney/2x12 and my Fender 15" 100 watt SS combo.

Tomorrow afternoon I will run my Laney at 8 ohms into one of the bass cabs while also slaving out it's signal to the Sunn which I will have hooked up to my 2x12, assuming it's safe to run that Sunn at 16 ohms. I will try various tones, levels of Laney distortion and volume levels and just see how it goes. I will also mess around more with the Laney into the 2x12 at lower distortion levels again just to refresh my memory as to what the breakup sounds like and at what point it happens.

Time for a movie.

Perfectly safe, you can run the Sunn with no speaker attached (infinite impedance) all the way down to 2 ohms.

Okay,

the Laney's slave out doesn't actually send a signal out(so I'm not sure what the hell it does) but the effects out does and works great for this purpose. Weird. I found this out late in my session however. After I couldn't get the slave out to do anything I proceeded to mess around with the Laney and the Sunn through my 2x12 and a 15" bass cab. The Sunn does not seem as loud as my Laney but that could be because it doesn't have it's own preamp. It sounds good with a muff clone into a Sansamp unit with bass and guitar, not necessarily better than my Fender bass combo but somewhat different. Played the Laney through both cabs and at all volume and distortion levels again. Turning down the preamp distortion just makes it sound more rock and less metal although I can scale it back somewhat and still get more or less the tone I want but it still breaks up crazy bad past 5 or so on the master volume with either cab(worse through the 2x12) but that's really not a big deal I guess. I do have the Laney's bass knob all the way up all the time and prefer it this way, it does increase the breaking up. Typical high gain heavy metal guitar tone does have a shitty quality to it from a certain perspective but what would Candlemass or Metallica be without it? Well I guess they would be heavy rock or stoner or sludge in a way although Iron Man, Orodruin and some other very heavy very METAL bands do have a thicker more sludgy guitar tone. I just turn the mids and treble down to reduce some of the ice picking but not so much that I'm sounding guitar tone knob on 0 kind of like Spirit Caravan(although I love them and Wino's tone is awesome).

By the time I figured out that I could use the Laney's effects out to send a slave signal my ears were already pretty fried and everything was just sounding loud but I didn't notice much difference of tone between the Laney on it's own and the Sunn whilst receiving the Laney slave signal though my 2x12 although it was perhaps more stable. I will continue to experiment with the Sunn Slave amp in the coming days. I'm quite sure it's loud enough for practice and gigging. The next time I play I think I'll be able to compare the tones through my 2x12 much better.

Also, I'd like a real Les Paul and suspect that some of the darker high wattage handling 15" guitar speakers would probably be ideal for the type of guitar tone I'm going for, perhaps right between 12" guitar speakers and bass speakers. I like the sound of 15" bass speakers for guitar but they do sound a bit muffled and I suspect that 12s would be more open. Of course I am also running a muff/Sansamp signal to a bass combo which does a great job of filling out the frequencies on the low end and balancing the overall stringed instrument side of the band.

Quote from: SunnO))) on September 02, 2011, 10:15:45 PM
We need to hear the Laney, I think you may truly have a weird issue going on. Find a comparison on a song or something? My AOR sounded like my 800, only shittier, with slightly more gain, and a worthless bass boost. Dragonaut was a Laney. Shit, most of Holy Mountain was a Laney AOR...

I had an AOR and I thought it sounded too fizzy and trashy if that makes sense although I think there were 2 different AOR varieties and I suspect I had the shitty one. The GH is a better amp overall in my opinion, smoother and better for any type of rock tone and also better for mega gain metal or anything in between. Yeah that AOR bass boost is nearly worthless because it produces way too much bass.

Comparison on a song... that's a hard one. To me it sounds like it gets too tube-y so the SS slave amp thing may be just what I need.

High wattage speakers are a bad idea, unless you are pushing high watts, especially bass speakers. The efficiency of a high wattage speaker is usually way less, than a low wattage speaker, basically you need more watts for the same level of loudness, so watch for that.

Have fun experimenting.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 03, 2011, 12:25:25 AM
Still, lets try and figure out whether the preamp is too high gain, or the amp is too quiet when clean.

I never run the amp on clean although it doesn't have a pure clean channel so I doubt it would go as loud cleanish as it does dirty.
The preamp is not too high gain, I need it's gain almost all the way up to get the sound I want without a Ratt(quality) or Metalzone(not a fan, been there done that) type pedal. But preamp tubes don't really get pushed harder as you turn the master volume up do they?

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 03, 2011, 12:25:25 AM
I can relate to not wanting to lug too many cabs, but after a bunch of shows where you get frustratedby your sound, or volume, sometimes you realize you just need to drag all that shit to be happy.

I hear ya but keep in mind that I'm splitting the signal to a guitar side(Laney) and a bass side(Sansamp & bass combo amp for now) if you will and they do compliment each other quite well so I feel like I shouldn't need to run the guitar side through a lot of cabs when the bass side provides all the low end I want but having said that I still want the guitar side to be very heavy and fairly thick sounding on it's own. I don't see any real need to be able to play a lot louder than the drummer at gigs but part of the reason I started this thread was because I do want to be able to really crank and still have good tone if I feel like doing so. I guess men are weird, it doesn't matter how big your dick is you always wish it was bigger. I would like more clarity in the 2.5 to 3 range though.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 03, 2011, 12:25:25 AM
I've been thinking about doing the next tour on bicycle, and converting my EV cab into a bike trailer ;D

Whoa. I've heard of solo singer songwriter acoustic players doing this but not anyone playing anything electric. I'd be concerned about rain storms and what not, not to mention my knees haha.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 03, 2011, 05:58:53 PM
High wattage speakers are a bad idea, unless you are pushing high watts, especially bass speakers. The efficiency of a high wattage speaker is usually way less, than a low wattage speaker, basically you need more watts for the same level of loudness, so watch for that.

Have fun experimenting.

That does make sense although it means that my 2x12 is 100 watts more than it needs to be because it has 2 75 watt speakers and my Laney can only put out 50. My impression is that higher wattage guitar speakers can handle more low end though. Is that generally correct? I'm quite sure that I would blow Greenbacks in a matter of minutes tuning way down to G.

Sorta. Low frequency requires more power, that's why bass amps are more watts. I play through guitar tube heads, and you'll never get it very loud, for the lows. You're tuning down to G? As in the 3rd fret on a regular tuned basses E string, is your lowest note? You may be wanting too much out of your amp then. I'd be looking at using something to thin your guitar signal as it goes to the Laney, not necessarily a frequency filter, say something like a Boss DS-1, I use a Boss Metallizer as it's horribly thin sounding on it's own, but it's great for passing the high frequencies, and blocking the low, and then I connect that thinned signal to a tube head, and it sounds just fine, not on it's own, but when you blend it with the full range signal going to the bass amp, where the highs are naturally attenuated as the speakers connected to the bass amp can't reproduce the high frequencies.

Anyways, as low frequency takes more power it's more likely to push your amp hard, which in turn pushes your speakers hard, which was the original question, hence you want a bit of leeway,  not necessarily 100W extra.

Is this making some kinda sense?

OK, something just clicked here, when we were talking about  bass and guitar and speakers.

Your 2x12 has Eminence Governor's right? From the Eminence website:

Specification
Nominal Basket Diameter   12", 304.8mm
Nominal Impedance*   8 ohms
Power Rating**
Watts   75W
Music Program   N/A
Resonance   101Hz
Usable Frequency Range   70Hz - 5kHz

OK, see the last bit 70Hz - 5KHz :)

Now you say your tuning down, from E which is 82.41Hz, to the G below it which is 49Hz, you see the problem?

The speakers in your 2x12 cannot produce the fundamental tone of your guitar, the amp wastes a lot of energy pumping it out, and it probably just makes the speakers kind of farty, you'll be able to hear the note as the speakers will play the harmonics just fine.

Your wasting your amps energy, and your speakers work, trying to hear something that isn't there.

I'd go back to my last post, and think about some way of thinning out the signal going to those 12's. There may be 12's which go a bit lower, but not many that go below 50Hz, unless you start looking at proper woofers, rather than guitar speakers.

(http://www.eminence.com/img/speakers/large/Commonwealth_12--1.jpg) (http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Commonwealth_12)(http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_standard/290-392_s.jpg) (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-392)

I used the 10" versions of those Goldwoods, in a 4x10, and they worked great for years until I ran them at way over their power handling and blew the snot out of two of them.

Fender Metalhead MH500 is one of the meanest and warmest solid state amps I've ever used.

Yes Eminence Governors.
Rather than castrating my guitar signal I'd rather get speakers that can handle the lows better. One of the Eminence 15" models goes down to 50Hz and I think most 15" bass speakers also go down about that low too.

Hemisaurus, something doesn't seem right about this whole frequency issue. If G is 49Hz that means that even an E tuned bass isn't right for some bass speakers because some of them have a usable frequency range that begins at around 48Hz. What is the frequency of the low B on a 5 string bass(or my 4 string that is tuned in B)? How about those crazy 8 string basses that go even lower? What speakers are you supposed to use for those?

Quote from: liquidsmoke on September 05, 2011, 04:49:49 AM
Hemisaurus, something doesn't seem right about this whole frequency issue. If G is 49Hz that means that even an E tuned bass isn't right for some bass speakers because some of them have a usable frequency range that begins at around 48Hz. What is the frequency of the low B on a 5 string bass(or my 4 string that is tuned in B)? How about those crazy 8 string basses that go even lower? What speakers are you supposed to use for those?

Bassically you just don't worry about amplifying the fundamental as the harmonics will trick your ears into thinking you can hear it prefectly fine anyway. Well either that or start using PA subs, which not many people do..

I do. Easy test, like we suggested ages ago in the Tech Thread, play an E-tuned guitar through it, do you have the same problems?

My Gibson SG tuned in E with stock pups does have the same problem however it's not as bad and sounds more normal up to a certain point although if I was playing high gain metal in E I would have thicker wound strings for a more beefy tone ala Ironsword, Cauldron Born, etc.. That SG is my rock axe


So when playing bass it's okay if you can't hear all of those low frequencies but when playing guitar it's not okay because the speakers aren't designed for it?

I'm leaning towards trying to get a single cab with the right 15" guitar speaker in it and if it rules all then get one more and then just use the 2x12 for rock playing only.

Nope, when playing a guitar tuned to the range of a bass, don't be surprised if your amp and cab start farting out. Your asking too much of them. Unless your Lemmy, who turns the bass down, and the mid's up, don't expect much out of even 100W tube amp, and he uses a 4x15 and a 4x12 per amp, lots of speakers, lots of air moving.

Google for musical note frequencies to get the table of note to frequency mapping.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 06, 2011, 11:06:16 AM
Nope, when playing a guitar tuned to the range of a bass, don't be surprised if your amp and cab start farting out. Your asking too much of them. Unless your Lemmy, who turns the bass down, and the mid's up, don't expect much out of even 100W tube amp, and he uses a 4x15 and a 4x12 per amp, lots of speakers, lots of air moving.

Sounds like Lemmy is using too much speaker though, as per what we were talking about before.. sending 10 or so watts each to speakers that can handle much much more but it works well for him. I need to see Motorhead again sometime.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 06, 2011, 11:06:16 AM
Google for musical note frequencies to get the table of note to frequency mapping.

Will do.

Quote from: liquidsmoke on September 06, 2011, 01:04:57 PM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 06, 2011, 11:06:16 AM
Nope, when playing a guitar tuned to the range of a bass, don't be surprised if your amp and cab start farting out. Your asking too much of them. Unless your Lemmy, who turns the bass down, and the mid's up, don't expect much out of even 100W tube amp, and he uses a 4x15 and a 4x12 per amp, lots of speakers, lots of air moving.

Sounds like Lemmy is using too much speaker though, as per what we were talking about before.. sending 10 or so watts each to speakers that can handle much much more but it works well for him. I need to see Motorhead again sometime.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on September 06, 2011, 11:06:16 AM
Google for musical note frequencies to get the table of note to frequency mapping.

Will do.

I think you missed something there, Lemmy has one cab per head which sounds about right to me. Bought 25watts per speaker not ten.

and that's tube amps so they'll putting out a lot more than 25 watts when they're in over driven territory.

Another thing you could/should look into is the world of ports on bass cabs and how they're tuned for lower frequencies. Only really learning the basics of this stuff myself so not much help with explain it to you. Here's a good start, although pretty basic info wise:

http://www.tunemybass.com/bass_amps/bass_cabinet_guide.html

Bit more detail on ports:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_reflex

 :'(

Ideal ported box 40"x16"x24" for two governors.

Thanks for the links moose23.


Played the Laney slaved out to the Sunn Slave unit more today. It's not nearly as loud but does sound more stable through my 2x12 and doesn't seem to break up as much. It does sound more solid state but the tone is acceptable in my opinion. Going to check out that local Randall Century 200 II tomorrow. If I could use that as a slave(assuming it can put out 200 watts mono) it should be louder than the Sunn. edit: that Randall is 120/100 watts 8/4 ohms, not 200.

edit: shop closed today when I went, couldn't play the Randall :(

Picked up that Randall Century 200 II yesterday but the inputs are pretty corroded and the sound sometimes cuts in and out, it's going back for return or a clean up. Doesn't sound too bad otherwise although it sounds solid state.

Go to the shack and get some deoxit, spray a cable male end, and run it in and out of the jack a few times. That'll clean 'er up.

sent from Mortlock's mom's laptop...

Quote from: SunnO))) on September 14, 2011, 01:51:53 PM
Go to the shack and get some deoxit, spray a cable male end, and run it in and out of the jack a few times. That'll clean 'er up.

sent from Mortlock's mom's laptop...

Thanks for the tip. Took the amp back in and they are going to clean it up no charge.

This Ibanez SS sounds pretty damn good at least in this youtube clip

I really like Crate Shockwaves. 350w, dense as fuck, weirdly smooth for a solid state.

Quote from: tombhex on April 23, 2012, 10:34:49 AM
I really like Crate Shockwaves. 350w, dense as fuck, weirdly smooth for a solid state.

350 watts and a guitar amp? I'm guessing it's based on an Ampeg but with a different pre-amp? I'll look into them. I think my 2x12 could handle that much power.

My Laney starts breaking up around 3 or so, I kind of like how it does that but it starts to ruin tight metal tone also so I kind of don't like it. For rock it's awesome.

fried of mine plays a Shockwave, it aint too shabby

I'm actually thinking about picking one up to use in situations where my V4+rat/V4+HM2/V4+Swollen Pickle isn't tight enough. I still like to play stuff like In Flames and whatnot, so contrary to what some people may think, there are times when clean amp + pedal won't get me there.

can you run a mono input into that stereo amp, then run + of ch1 to 16ohm spkr and return from spkr to - of ch2? leave any stereo reffects completely off and/or use the "mono" output setting if it has one.

double the amps makes the speaker appear 1/2 impedance.  maybe then you could use both halves of the amp and both halves see 8ohms with your 16ohm cab. like bridging...

i know for home stereos, i have this thing made by great american sound called a bridge. it is for mono-ing up stereo amps from the input side. i have used it on a pair of 100w/ch receivers to run subs at 200w, but you have to double up the speaker impedance to keep the amps seeing their normal impedance, so 4 ohm single speakers are real iffy with a bridged ss receiver seeing 2 ohms

edit: ps, you can run higher impedance speakers into SS amps. the impedance mismatch only limits current, nothing destructive. you only lose volume and maybe some thickness of sound.
ie, an open is 100% safe on a SS output(infinite resistance, nothing burning itself up inside the amp)
there is no such thing as 8ohm dummy loads for ss amps or any of that open circuit avoidance stuff needed for tube outputs.  conversely, you have to watch low impedance on SS amps, as you approach short circuit, the outputs try to push more and more current at the set o/p voltage. eventually they melt.

Same friend with the Shockwave showed me some pretty jerry-rigged way of running this old Randall SS head he used at 2ohm stereo, had to do with plugging some stuff in and leaving something unplugged to the speaker cab...long time ago, can't remember. It was super balls loud though.

If you're that desperate for power, fling a $200 1500W power amp in the mix ::)

^ I've considered doing something like that, albeit with more reasonable wattage. When it comes to SS and metal, I wish tech21 built a rack unit for their sansamp gt2.

Quote from: bitter on April 25, 2012, 11:59:30 AM
^ I've considered doing something like that, albeit with more reasonable wattage. When it comes to SS and metal, I wish tech21 built a rack unit for their sansamp gt2.

Well 1500W is the bridged spec, if you just run one channel, I think it's about 300W into 8 ohm and 450W into 4 (700W into 2), if you have 16 ohm cabs, you'll get about 220W or so I'd imagine. If you're running modern 4x12's where each speaker handles at least 75W or so, one 4x12 can handle that fine. You can make a stereo rig if you like. Solid state poweramps are so cheap. Run stereo full stacks, push 900W.

Last night, I noticed, the Melvins had zero tubes on stage. Sunn PB-10s for Buzz, and two big solid state poweramps, Emperor 4x12s. Bassist used Beta basses preamped out to big Ol poweramps, and some Monolith cabs.

Sounded tight. Unsane used the Melvin's shit.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

Thumbs WAY up for Beta's!

Thumbs up for the hex inverter.

(http://library.thinkquest.org/10784/media/cs_inverter.gif)(http://library.thinkquest.org/10784/media/cs_inverter.gif)(http://library.thinkquest.org/10784/media/cs_inverter.gif)

this is the Beta sound.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on April 25, 2012, 02:35:06 PM

Quote from: bitter on April 25, 2012, 11:59:30 AM
^ I've considered doing something like that, albeit with more reasonable wattage. When it comes to SS and metal, I wish tech21 built a rack unit for their sansamp gt2.

Well 1500W is the bridged spec, if you just run one channel, I think it's about 300W into 8 ohm and 450W into 4 (700W into 2), if you have 16 ohm cabs, you'll get about 220W or so I'd imagine. If you're running modern 4x12's where each speaker handles at least 75W or so, one 4x12 can handle that fine. You can make a stereo rig if you like. Solid state poweramps are so cheap. Run stereo full stacks, push 900W.

I could handle that currently (16 ohms W/ 4 vintage 30 clones ~240 watts), but I don't think I need quite that much power. 150 watts would prolly be more reasonable. At least for my needs.

still tho!

Quote from: bitter on April 25, 2012, 02:58:32 PM
Well 1500W is the bridged spec, if you just run one channel, I think it's about 300W into 8 ohm and 450W into 4 (700W into 2), if you have 16 ohm cabs, you'll get about 220W or so I'd imagine. If you're running modern 4x12's where each speaker handles at least 75W or so, one 4x12 can handle that fine. You can make a stereo rig if you like. Solid state poweramps are so cheap. Run stereo full stacks, push 900W.

I could handle that currently (16 ohms W/ 4 vintage 30 clones ~240 watts), but I don't think I need quite that much power. 150 watts would prolly be more reasonable. At least for my needs.
[/quote]
Don't turn up the gain then. I have a >3000W amp, one channel of which currently drive 2 300W subs, they haven't blown, because I have the gain halfway up :)

That could actually work. I need to run my behringer preamp (gt2 clone) into the power section of my main amp and see what kind of headroom it gets. I usually keep the gain low for pedal use because the mic/cab modeling portion colors the sound a bit.

Anyone here ever play through or own one of the old Laney Linebacker 50 or 100 SS heads? I never knew these existed until tonight so I'm very curious about them. I suspect the preamp gain sucks but as a pedal amp they could be cool, at least the 100 watter anyway. Laney makes a new SS head but they are probably not anything special for the price(over $300).

Tech 21 Trademark 300
Interesting.

http://www.tech21nyc.com/archive/trademark300.html

(http://www.tech21nyc.com/archive/images/tm_300_image.gif)
(http://www.tech21nyc.com/archive/images/TM-300_Head_Classic.jpg)

"production suspended until further notice" is a big red flag.

I mentioned this earlier but with a gt-2 preamp pedal + rack poweramp.

Still a good choice. I like the heavy tones available from the gt-2 style preamp.

It gets really good reviews, might actually sound too tubey for me. I guess it's basically an analog modeling amp, weird. I've also read that it's really picky about cabs and speakers and they made a cab for it that was designed not to color the sound.

All I really need is an amp with a good clean channel for the TightMetal. I think the idea that I might find a SS head with usable preamp distortion is a fantasy.

I'm even boring myself going on and on about this. Need to just pull the trigger on something that has a good clean channel.

Ampeg SS-150. Done. Gain channel kills it, too.

(http://images1.americanlisted.com/nlarge/crate_g120c_guitar_amp_head_unit_120_w_160_south_lyon_9132526.jpg)(http://images1.americanlisted.com/nlarge/crate_gx130-c_200_antelope_8530551.jpg)(http://www.bazaar-world.com/uploads/amp/48/200296578239-1.jpg)(http://www.bazaar-world.com/uploads/amp/9/220134127300-1.jpg)

^^^^ Bizarro me/realJake has the right idea.

Those Ampegs are fairly rare, right now I can't find any online for sale as was the case when I looked a time or two before. I'm pretty skeptical of Crates although as was mentioned earlier in this thread, the G130C is said to be very similar to the VH-140C. Was just reading that the 'SS' Ampegs are similar to the VH but with less gain and also that the Crate GTX and VTX have the VH circuit.

In other news, Randall is coming out with a new 3 channel RG called the RG1503 that is said to have more gain than the old RGs. No price announced yet. Could be awesome but I suspect it will sound generic.

edited so the info is more correct

Our old guitarist from rhe punk band, is in a straight metal band, he had the VH-140, sold it, uses this

(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/286070_174845172586445_100001828896210_418681_7780643_o.jpg?dl=1)

As to the G-130, Bob's is still running from the 80's, and one channel was enough to blow away a Peavey XXL. I've even used it for bass.

I think the '80s Crates were better built than the new ones although the G130C is said to use cheaper parts than the VH-140C.

Going to check out a local Craigslist Laney GH-120(solid state from the '90s, rare in the US) and no name 4x12 slant for $300 in a bit here.

If you're liking the tight metal would you not just pick up a solid state power amp, you'd make Hemi and myself happy.

Ill run a metal zone through a 600 watt poweramp tonight. We'll see what's up.

Quote from: SunnO))) on May 04, 2012, 02:55:39 PM
Ill run a metal zone through a 600 watt poweramp tonight. We'll see what's up.

Bet it sounds shite.

Quote from: moose23 on May 04, 2012, 03:37:55 PM

Quote from: SunnO))) on May 04, 2012, 02:55:39 PM
Ill run a metal zone through a 600 watt poweramp tonight. We'll see what's up.

Bet it sounds shite.

Betcha I can make it sound decent/good.

It's been years since I heard or played through one but back in the late 90's the original Marshall valvestates with the tube preamp sounded pretty damn good

Pretty certain the later, if not all the Death albums were SS Marshalls.

I've got an SS-150 I'd consider selling. I think I listed it on here before, but I've been trying to sell it locally so I wouldn't have to ship it. Personally I like running a Tubescreamer into the clean section cranked over the gain channel, but it is a good amp.

The Tech21 Trademark amps are good too. I used to have one of the combos and I used it a lot over 10 years. Although the cleans do sound a lot better than the distortion compared to tube amps, if you already want solid state distortion I would put it towards the top of the heap. Tech21 knows their stuff, they don't make lemons. The 300 is just 3 identical 100 what amps that you can set differently and switch between. They do discontinue stuff that stops selling or that becomes redundant if they're going to put out something new, so I wouldn't be scared off by it being discontinued.

...and if you aren't sold on that tone by the 3rd note, IDK what to say.

Quote from: moose23 on May 04, 2012, 02:49:35 PM
If you're liking the tight metal would you not just pick up a solid state power amp, you'd make Hemi and myself happy.

Well I did a few hours ago only it's housed in a guitar amp head  ;D

Laney GH-120 & "ARG-412-S-1" that Google tells me is a Bogner.

This amp has no pure clean channel. The cleaner of the 2 goes in and out after playing the amp for awhile, this didn't happen when I test played it. The more gainy channel sounds like a shitty version of the GH tube head and will not be usable for me although it doesn't cut out at all. TightMetal into the effects in in the back sounds fine although I will need to get an eq pedal or preamp of some sort to use it that way for more tone shaping. Having a guitar head sitting on a cab looks neat. A couple of the screws are a tad rusty but this amp looks like it's never been gigged with despite it's age.

The cab is a 4x12 slant with front mounted speakers that have metal grill coverings. I took one out to find that it's particle board and the speakers have nothing printed on them. It sounds fine but breaks up more than I would like at higher volumes.

If I could have spent 2 hours at the dude's house messing around with this half stack I probably would have passed on it but that's how this goes sometimes. He wanted to sell the cab with the head so I figured fuck it. I didn't have a big desire for a 4x12 and don't need it but why not.

Looks like I'm buying Corey's SS-150. When it rains it pours.

Quote from: SunnO))) on May 04, 2012, 02:55:39 PM
Ill run a metal zone through a 600 watt poweramp tonight. We'll see what's up.

I've owned 2 metalzones and don't like them but if you tweak it right it could work. You should try some other pedals with the power amp.

Quote from: mutantcolors on May 04, 2012, 04:24:40 PM
...and if you aren't sold on that tone by the 3rd note, IDK what to say.

Sounds good. I've heard good things about those amps although I'm on a pure SS quest right now.

Use a bass amp and be done with it. If you can't find a power amp you like.

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 04, 2012, 06:56:32 PM

Quote from: mutantcolors on May 04, 2012, 04:24:40 PM
...and if you aren't sold on that tone by the 3rd note, IDK what to say.

Sounds good. I've heard good things about those amps although I'm on a pure SS quest right now.

That's what I'm saying. I am fairly sure they/he used SS Marshalls.

You live in Madison, that's like a used gear mecca, wtf.

Quote from: mutantcolors on May 04, 2012, 09:33:51 PM

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 04, 2012, 06:56:32 PM

Quote from: mutantcolors on May 04, 2012, 04:24:40 PM
...and if you aren't sold on that tone by the 3rd note, IDK what to say.

Sounds good. I've heard good things about those amps although I'm on a pure SS quest right now.

That's what I'm saying. I am fairly sure they/he used SS Marshalls.

Tube preamp I believe.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on May 04, 2012, 09:50:25 PM
You live in Madison, that's like a used gear mecca, wtf.

Not so much. We've got Guitar Center, Greg's, and Craigslist at this point. That's about it.

I'll have an SS-150 next week.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on May 04, 2012, 09:24:33 PM
Use a bass amp and be done with it. If you can't find a power amp you like.

A dirt pedal through a bass amp into beefy guitar speakers could be really awesome actually. All the low end one would ever need. This would be mega heavy. I will try my TightMetal through my Sansamp bass pedal into the effects in of the SS Laney and see what happens. I don't imagine the amp will care either way and the Swamp Thangs should be okay.

Model T + modded metal zone is a beastly combo.

modded metal zone? I've heard you talk a lot about metal zones. what kind of mod are you doing?

The Sansamp sounds pretty good after the TightMetal although the low knob on that unit is of course geared more towards bass and lacks some of the low mids which work better for guitar. For effects loop return playing I think that larger MXR eq pedal would work better. I'll see how things go with the Ampeg SS-150. I have a good feeling.   8)

I've heard good things about the Keeley MZ.

Quote from: Discö Rice on May 05, 2012, 03:14:34 PM
modded metal zone? I've heard you talk a lot about metal zones. what kind of mod are you doing?

Metal zone = total tone sucking piece of shit. It's a garbage pedal.

Modded metal zone = usable and makes non-metal amps... metal.

It's basically the Keeley MZ, but I finally found a kid who play drums like a demon, and wants to play some hardcore/death metal. We jammed today, I got to use a pointy guitar, and a Model T in the same band practice.

blisssss

Cool. Using the POG for that?

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 05, 2012, 04:54:40 PM
Cool. Using the POG for that?

too muddy for the POG, lots of trem picking and whatnot.

Quote from: SunnO))) on May 05, 2012, 05:16:24 PM

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 05, 2012, 04:54:40 PM
Cool. Using the POG for that?

too muddy for the POG, lots of trem picking and whatnot.

Ah so the POG does have it's limitations then. I meant 2 amps of course.

I mean, lower tunings always fuck up octave pedals, no matter what.

Quote from: SunnO))) on May 05, 2012, 05:54:23 PM
I mean, lower tunings always fuck up octave pedals, no matter what.

Ah. Even with thick strings for a tight sound? Is it the chords that octave pedals have a hard time with? I think I've heard of octave pedals for bass.

The octaver on my Ashdown tracks my 5 string all the way down and past. I think they may sell it as a separate pedal.

(http://www.ashdownmusic.com/bass/products/pedal_sop.jpg) (http://www.ashdownmusic.com/bass/detail.asp?section=pedal&ID=155)

Yep.

So I'm confused. Low notes are okay but not low chords? There isn't that much difference between a low E chord on a standard tuned guitar and a low B chord on a 7 string or B tuned guitar.

Chords tend to jack those things up. It's not limited to low chords, though.

"It's just an amp, for fuck's sake, if you don't like the sound, turn one of the knobs, and quit crying about it on the internet."

Whoa, uh, sorry, dude.

The POG tracks awesome, but it just doesn't go low very well. In D standard? Fuck yeah, will play chords and do everything proper, but it's essentially a bass. Any lower, and playing power chords low will just mud out... just like a bass.

I recommend that you turn one of the knobs and quit crying about it on the internet  ;D

Having another man make your clothes is like having another man farm your food which is like having another man generate your electricity which is like having another man build your dream amp which is like having another man father your children which is like the best thing ever because kids fucking suck. 

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 05, 2012, 11:02:29 PM
"It's just an amp, for fuck's sake, if you don't like the sound, turn one of the knobs, and quit crying about it on the internet."

Whoa, uh, sorry, dude.

Wow, a real life illustration of the old joke, about saying out loud at a party, the trouble with women is they take everything personally and see how many say well I don't ;D

ROFL ;D

Quote from: Hemisaurus on May 06, 2012, 07:42:17 AM

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 05, 2012, 11:02:29 PM
"It's just an amp, for fuck's sake, if you don't like the sound, turn one of the knobs, and quit crying about it on the internet."

Whoa, uh, sorry, dude.

Wow, a real life illustration of the old joke, about saying out loud at a party, the trouble with women is they take everything personally and see how many say well I don't ;D

ROFL ;D

BAM!
If you need me I'll be building my dream amp, texts would be best.

Quote from: liquidsmoke on June 04, 1970, 12:00:43 PM
If you need me I'll be building my dream amp, texts would be best.

Cool :)

Quote from: clockwork green on May 06, 2012, 03:06:09 AM
Having another man make your clothes is like having another man farm your food which is like having another man generate your electricity which is like having another man build your dream amp which is like having another man father your children which is like the best thing ever because kids fucking suck. 

Wow, so you rate sex, clothing, food and your amp on the same level, that's either really great, or really sad for you, I'm going with the latter.

Oh yeah, and can Sunn have your gf's number please ;D

Shouldn't you be in another thread complaining about how much stuff costs or out dumpster diving for lunch?

Cut the shit, you fuckers. If you want to argue, argue in gen disc.  :-\ :-\

Quote from: clockwork green on May 06, 2012, 06:09:56 PM
Shouldn't you be in another thread complaining about how much stuff costs or out dumpster diving for lunch?

Bit of a leap? It costs too much to impregnate your girlfriend (the after effects will ;))? Or do you pay as much for your lunch as you do for your amp? I kind of find it difficult to follow you.

Would Field of Dreams have been cooler if Kevin Costner had a bunch of guys come in, level the ground, plant grass, paint lines etc. etc. well it probably wouldn't have been much worse, but it would have been an even more boring story.

If I'm gonna lay out $2K for an amp, I'm gonna spend all that money on the amp, and craft it myself, not pay $600 for parts (maybe Nick can correct me here) and $1400 for some dude. If all you want is the amp, go to Guitar Center, go to Sam Ash, they've got walls of it. I'm quite happy to play an amp, and drive a car, but for the dream, I'm gonna do it my damn self for sure, it's not worth shit to me otherwise.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on May 06, 2012, 06:40:19 PM

Quote from: clockwork green on May 06, 2012, 06:09:56 PM
Shouldn't you be in another thread complaining about how much stuff costs or out dumpster diving for lunch?

Bit of a leap? It costs too much to impregnate your girlfriend (the after effects will ;))? Or do you pay as much for your lunch as you do for your amp? I kind of find it difficult to follow you.

Would Field of Dreams have been cooler if Kevin Costner had a bunch of guys come in, level the ground, plant grass, paint lines etc. etc. well it probably wouldn't have been much worse, but it would have been an even more boring story.

If I'm gonna lay out $2K for an amp, I'm gonna spend all that money on the amp, and craft it myself, not pay $600 for parts (maybe Nick can correct me here) and $1400 for some dude. If all you want is the amp, go to Guitar Center, go to Sam Ash, they've got walls of it. I'm quite happy to play an amp, and drive a car, but for the dream, I'm gonna do it my damn self for sure, it's not worth shit to me otherwise.

Parts cost varies based on output power. For a 100W parts is usually 1200-1300 dollars. If you interested in seeing a quote sheet let me know

My policy on amp builds right now is to charge $200 for labor + plus parts and then when the time comes, customer pays for shipping after I have shipped it.

Maybe after all is said and done I might break even, that 200 labor charge is quickly consumed by solder, gas to drive around to my dads and back for drilling, often a few components I might have forgot, and or the gf fund...haha.

you might pay 600 for amp parts if u buy a weber kit but i could never get a complete amp parts for that money. I always buy new stuff, mil grade pots, well made iron, ect ect. Parts are never very cheap but customers always know what I am putting into amps. Its all spelled out in a quite sheet

I could charge a lot more I guess but currently I do not. I try to be honest about where your money is going into for each amp.

You're missing a market niche Nick, amp building and girlfriend impregnating, your doing your doctorate right, smart sperm sells ;)

You're right, I do tend to look only at the electrical and iron costs, and forget chassis, headcase fab, panel fab, tube costs, etc. Probably why most of my projects are in recycled or odd cases :)

How would you feel if someone came to you and wanted their dream amp, but wanted to participate, like you wire the board, and they build it in the chassis, or something like that. I mean I get some people can't solder, but everyone can usually do something, build the headcase, design the art for the panels, something. Ship it sans knobs so they can put the knobs on ;D

I think I'd find a quote sheet fascinating if you have a generic-y one that you feel happy to release on the world. I think the scary thing is, you can't build an amp for less than $1200, yet you can buy an amp, new for $400, just the sheer price scale down of mass manufacture, plus corner cutting of course.

You're all about the sex. All I said was that I didn't like kids. Maybe you're using too much Peavey brand birth control. Also, love the font in your signature...really subtle.

I wouldnt mind someone who wanted to do a collaborative work. I am actually doing this with someone, they simply wanted me to design it, provide a layout then they would build it but i would also be open to doing more split work like say McNeese/Joel style. If someone wanted to do something of this nature they would just need to email me and propose the idea.

send me ur email ill send you my Wizard amp quote

Not for public consumption?

Quote from: Hemisaurus on May 06, 2012, 07:11:55 PM
Not for public consumption?

I will give it to anyone but I prefer to do it by email. It is an excel spreadsheet

Quote from: dunwichamps on May 06, 2012, 07:08:24 PM
I wouldnt mind someone who wanted to do a collaborative work. I am actually doing this with someone, they simply wanted me to design it, provide a layout then they would build it but i would also be open to doing more split work like say McNeese/Joel style. If someone wanted to do something of this nature they would just need to email me and propose the idea.

send me ur email ill send you my Wizard amp quote

:D :D :D :D

Quote from: SunnO))) on May 06, 2012, 07:16:08 PM

Quote from: dunwichamps on May 06, 2012, 07:08:24 PM
I wouldnt mind someone who wanted to do a collaborative work. I am actually doing this with someone, they simply wanted me to design it, provide a layout then they would build it but i would also be open to doing more split work like say McNeese/Joel style. If someone wanted to do something of this nature they would just need to email me and propose the idea.

send me ur email ill send you my Wizard amp quote

:D :D :D :D

yes yes i mentioned them now move on

The Ampfinder General will now darken your doorstep.   ;)

Quote from: dunwichamps on May 06, 2012, 07:14:26 PM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on May 06, 2012, 07:11:55 PM
Not for public consumption?

I will give it to anyone but I prefer to do it by email. It is an excel spreadsheet

Would it be OK if I then translated it to BBCode, I wrote a script somewhere to do that.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on May 06, 2012, 07:37:41 PM

Quote from: dunwichamps on May 06, 2012, 07:14:26 PM

Quote from: Hemisaurus on May 06, 2012, 07:11:55 PM
Not for public consumption?

I will give it to anyone but I prefer to do it by email. It is an excel spreadsheet

Would it be OK if I then translated it to BBCode, I wrote a script somewhere to do that.

sure. i give you permission

 ;)

 ;)

the 50W quote yes!

100W EL34, no  ???

	The Wizard Amp Quote
	Part Type	Part Name	Quantity	Price Per	Cost	Supplier
	Iron Set
	PT	ClassicTone 40-18069	1	121	121	Triode
	OT	ClassicTone 40-18072	1	111	111	Triode
	Choke	ClassicTone 40-18058	1	19.23	19.23	Triode
	HeadShell
	Headshell	Cab Guy	1	135	135	Cab Guy
	Tube Sockets
	9 Pin	Belton 9 Pin	3	1.6	4.8	CE
	9 Pin Shield	Belton 9 Pin Shield	4	2.25	9	Watts
	8 Pin	Belton 8 Pin	4	1.95	7.8	CE
	El34 Retainers	El34 Retainers	4	1.8	7.2	CE
	Chassis
	Chassis	Custom Chassis Ceriatone	1	110	110	Ceriatone
	Circuit Board
	Turret Board Material 1	3.125 x 16 Turret Board	1	16	16	Watts
	Turret Board Material 2	3.125 x 6 Turret Board	1	6	6	Watts
	Turrets	Turrets	150	0.27	40.5	Watts
	3/4 Standoff	Watts 3/4 Alumnimum Standoff	12	1	12	Watts
	12 Turret Strip	Watts 12 Turret Strip	1	10.5	10.5	Watts
	Switches and Jacks
	1/4 Mono Signal Jack	Cliff Jack	4	1.4	5.6	CE
	3 Way Impedance Switch	CE Rotary Impedance Switch	1	6.75	6.75	CE
	Heavy Duty DPDT Switch	Carling DPDT	3	5.4	16.2	CE
	MBB Rotary Switch	PPP 12 pos toary	1	3	3	PPP
	Stock Caps
	250uF Cap Can	JJ 250uF Cap Can	2	9.25	18.5	CE
	50uf + 50uF Cap Can	JJ 50uF x 2 Cap Can	3	7.5	22.5	CE
	Cap Can Clamp	S-H122 Clamp	5	0.95	4.75	CE
	100uF 450V Cap	F&T 100uF 450V Cap	2	6.95	13.9	CE
	50uF Cathode Cap	Sprague Atom 50uF Cap	3	1.7	5.1	CE
	100nF Coupling Cap	Sozo 100nF Cap	3	2.5	7.5	Tube Depot
	68nF Coupling Cap	Sozo 68nF Cap	5	2.45	12.25	Tube Depot
	47nF Coupling Cap	Sozo 47nF Cap	4	2.15	8.6	Tube Depot
	22nF Coupling Cap	Sozo 22nF Cap	3	2.15	6.45	Tube Depot
	10nF Coupling Cap	Sozo 10nF Cap	3	2.15	6.45	Tube Depot
	4.7nF Coupling Cap	Sozo 4.7nF Cap	3	2.05	6.15	Tube Depot
	2.2nF Coupling Cap	Sozo 2.2nF Cap	3	2.05	6.15	Tube Depot
	1nF Coupling Cap	Sozo 1nF Cap	3	1.95	5.85	Tube Depot
	820pF Silver Mica	TD 820pF	3	0.65	1.95	CE
	470pF Silver Mica	TD 470pF	3	0.65	1.95	CE
	330pF Silver Mica	TD 330pF	3	0.65	1.95	CE
	220pF Silver Mica	TD 220pF	3	0.65	1.95	CE
	100pF Silver Mica	TD 100pF	3	0.65	1.95	CE
	Bias Cap	F&T 100uF 100V Bias Cap	2	1.7	3.4	CE
	Misc
	Breaker	4A Breaker	1	1.75	1.75	Weber
	Diodes	Weber 1N5407	10	0.1	1	Weber
	Hardware	Nuts and Bolts	1	20	20	Misc
	Bias Taps
	Red Bias Tap	Weber Bias Tap	2	0.45	0.9	Ted Weber
	Black Bias Tap	Weber Bias Tap	2	0.45	0.9	Ted Weber
	Wire
	22 AWG Teflon	Weber Black	15	0.3	4.5	Ted Weber
	22 AWG Teflon	Weber Yellow	15	0.3	4.5	Ted Weber
	22 AWG Teflon	Weber Blue	15	0.3	4.5	Ted Weber
	22 AWG Teflon	Weber Red	15	0.3	4.5	Ted Weber
	22 AWG Teflon	Weber Orange	15	0.3	4.5	Ted Weber
	22 AWG Teflon	Weber Green	15	0.3	4.5	Ted Weber
	18 AWG Teflon	TD Red	0.85	5	4.25	Tube Depot
	18 AWG Teflon	TD Black	0.85	5	4.25	Tube Depot
	18 AWG Buss Wire	TD Buss Wire	20	0.25	5	Tube Depot
	16 AWG Buss Wire	TD Buss Wire	20	0.25	5	Tube Depot
	Resistors
	5W Cement 39k	TD 5W Cement 39k	5	0.45	2.25	Tube Depot
	5W Cement 1K	TD 5W Cement 1K	5	0.45	2.25	Tube Depot
	220k 2W Metal Film	Weber Metal Film 220k 2W	5	0.17	0.85	Ted Weber
	10k 3W Metal Oxide	Tube Depot 3W Metal Oxide	5	0.25	1.25	Ted Weber
	4.7k 3W Metal Oxide	Tube Depot 3W Metal Oxide	5	0.25	1.25	Ted Weber
	1M 1/2W 1% MF	Tube Depot 1/2W Dale	10	0.25	2.5	Tube Depot
	1k 1/2W 1% MF	Tube Depot 1/2W Dale	10	0.25	2.5	Tube Depot
	1M 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	470k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	220k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	100k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	82k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	68k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	47k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	33k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	27k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	22k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	10k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	4.7k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	2.2k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	2k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	1k 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	680 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	470 1W Carbon Film	Tube Depot 1W Carbon Film	10	0.115	1.15	Tube Depot
	1% 1 ohm 1/2W Sense Resistor	Weber 1% 1R MF Resistors	4	0.22	0.88	Weber
	Pilot Light
	Fender Style Pilot Light Housing	1	1	2.95	2.95	CE
	Pilot Light	1	1	3	3	CE
	Bezel (Your choice of color)	1	1	2	2	CE
	Faceplates
	Set of Faceplates	Precision Design Faceplates	1	75	75	Sandy
	Knobs
	Chickenheads	Weber White Chickenheads	7	1.1	7.7	Weber
	Tubes
	12ax7	JJ 12ax7	3	7.75	23.25	CE
	El34 or 6ca7s	JJ EL34/6ca7 Quad	1	58	58	CE
	Pots
	1M Log	Precision 2W Mil-Spec	4	8.5	34	CE
	500k Log	Precision 2W Mil-Spec	1	8.5	8.5	CE
	5k Linear	Precision 2W Mil-Spec	1	8.5	8.5	CE
	50k Linear Bias	Weber 50k Lin Bias	4	1.8	7.2	Weber
	All Prices Below Do Not Include Shipping	Shipper	Costs
		Sandy	15
	Stock Wizard	Ted Weber	30
		Tube Depot	8
	1412.31	CE	12
		Triode	20
		Watts	15
		Stock Shipping Total	100
		GGG	10
		Tap Plastic	20

Futzed it about to fit in one post. ;D

oops my bad, yes i see quad of el34s, so yes 100W or so EL34

Just looking, the iron+chassis+headcase = $496.23 Peavey Windsor was $399 new, you can see where Hovercraft make a saving by used iron. Most expensive part is the headshell, then the PT, OT, chassis and faceplates, cool.

What is surprising is the ancilliaries cost more than the main parts, I figured most of the money would go on iron, casing, chassis and control panel, you've got about twice again on other parts.

I should go back into the spreadsheet and total up each section, and add that back in, then again the sheet is at the 20,000 character limit of the board already. Had to add some extra control codes to keep it in line.

8.5 per pot, 1-3 bucks per coupling cap shit adds up.

I dont go super broke on iron, its mostly all done by Mag Comp which has good pricing for solid iron cept on the 200W unit, thats all Merc

Quote from: Hemisaurus on May 06, 2012, 05:23:17 PM

Quote from: liquidsmoke on June 04, 1970, 12:00:43 PM
If you need me I'll be building my dream amp, texts would be best.

Cool :)

I was joking but I'm sure you know that.

I get the point of your sig. Between this place, all the info I've culled up from Google searches, conversations with friends, and hands on experimentation over the last few weeks I'm really close to the sound I want so fortunately for you I've just about run out of dumb questions to ask and new pieces of gear to buy. If others continue to annoy you with their teenage level inquiries I suggest you ignore their posts.

Regarding the preamp distortion tone, the Ampeg SS 150 isn't a bad sounding amp in comparison to other solid state amps but it's not working out for me. Not quite enough gain on it's own either.

The Amptweaker TightMetal is the best sounding high gain metal pedal or preamp I've ever played through. I wish it's noise gate was usable but I am declaring that search over.

Neither the Ampeg or my SS Laney have a pure clean channel or a volume knob that works when you hook up though the rear effects/slave in. My Laney GH does but being tube and 50 watts it breaks up too quick.

So I guess I need either a SS amp that can do pure cleans through it's preamp or at least has a master volume knob that works when you go through the back

or

some type of volume or clean preamp pedal with tons of headroom.

If there is a gain knob in the circuit it can not effect the tone.

Roland JC? Fender Jazzmaster Ultralight? Any random modern SS amp with an effects loop? Sansamp pedal? Volume pedal?

Wondering what you folks think.

In the past when I was using Muffs and what not I would mix them up with preamp distortion and never cared if there was extra power amp distortion so this is new territory for me. It seems like it's common for bass amps to offer mega loud clean tones but not guitar amps. Although I prefer the look of traditional guitar amp heads I am open to power amps but there again I still need a volume knob.

While I'm on the topic of SS power amps(inside heads and stand alone units) I have no idea which ones sound good or bad. I hear heavy is good but class D stuff is super light and is becoming popular. My Ampeg sounds good to me but I have no idea if the power amp it has is a relatively good sounding one or not. Electro Harmonix makes a *pedal* sized 44 watt unit. What gives doc?

Ignoring volume, for a bit, have you come across a setup that sounds good to you, even if it's not loud enough? I'm wondering if you need to do the Matt Pike thing, preamp into tube amp, into a load box, into a big ass power amp?

Solid state or tube, I still suggest a boost/OD to refine, tighten, and add gain.

I've done the "Matt Pike" thing.

Good god it rules. Pure tube tone. Gi-fucking-gantic volume. Like explode your 4x12 volume.

The TightMetal is perfect, I just want an amp that can give me that sound but mega loud if I want mega loud. Right now I just need practice loud and I'm pretty much covered although as I was saying I'd like a proper master volume knob.

I may not have explained things well enough.

The tube Laney breaks up too much even when I bypass it's preamp.

The 2 solid state amps I have are not clean enough for a pedal through their preamps and when I take these girls through the back door their front knobs are bypassed leaving me without a master volume knob.

The TightMetal and Boss EQ pedal don't have enough headroom to be used as preamp volume controlling type devices, they are more to be set for perfect tone and not touched.

I can understand the Matt Pike thing but I just need a clean as fuck preamp into a solid state power amp. So maybe a Roland or Fender head or some type of volume pedal into a power amp or just the effects loop of one of my heads. Ideally a solid state guitar head that has a functioning master volume knob even when you hit it from the back. This is the norm with more modern tube heads and I imagine is also the norm with more modern SS heads. I didn't really need to post about this but I am curious about solid state technology and about what other pedal users who want to simply amplify their pedal's tone without any extra gain in the signal do.

A SS power amp with a volume knob. This is what I need. No gain knobs or eq knobs to alter and color the signal in other ways. A volume knob in a pedal would also work but it can not produce more gain when I turn up the volume because I don't need more gain and I don't want to have to adjust my distortion pedal simply because I turn the volume up.

I'm a new born baby with this stuff. Sorry.

I'm sure I suggested this a few weeks ago but just buy a solid state power amp. They all (well vast majority) have a volume control.

Something from Crown or Peavey would be top of my list but anything built for PA use will be clean and loud.

So, both your solid state amps are loud enough and clean enough for you when used through the back door all you need is a volume control?

Remind me which solid state amps you have, and which back door you are using.

Quote from: moose23 on May 26, 2012, 06:31:56 AMI'm sure I suggested this a few weeks ago but just buy a solid state power amp. They all (well vast majority) have a volume control.

Something from Crown or Peavey would be top of my list but anything built for PA use will be clean and loud.

Im sure we all have suggested viable options. Dean does this to me all the time, asks me something, then does the opposite.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on May 26, 2012, 10:23:09 AM
So, both your solid state amps are loud enough and clean enough for you when used through the back door all you need is a volume control?

Remind me which solid state amps you have, and which back door you are using.

Laney GH120(rare SS) "effects loop return"

Ampeg SS 150 "effects loop power amp input"

The only rear in these amps have. They are older amps without as many modern bells and whistles. I didn't buy them specially for this purpose. I suspect that any cheap newer Crate or Acoustic or whatever would at least have a functioning master volume knob when used this way as my Laney GH does.

Quote from: SunnO))) on May 26, 2012, 01:03:22 PM

Quote from: moose23 on May 26, 2012, 06:31:56 AM
I'm sure I suggested this a few weeks ago but just buy a solid state power amp. They all (well vast majority) have a volume control.

Something from Crown or Peavey would be top of my list but anything built for PA use will be clean and loud.

Im sure we all have suggested viable options. Dean does this to me all the time, asks me something, then does the opposite.

This is perfect. I never knew that power amps had volume controls, I thought the preamps people pair them with controlled everything. I will probably go this route.

I was previously trying to find a SS with useable preamp distortion. I have given up that search in favor of TightMetal to a power amp.

So long as these bass/PA/whatever type preamp's volume knobs function the same as "regular" guitar/bass all in one head volume knobs I should be good with one.

Get big watts. You'll regret it if you dont.

Quote from: SunnO))) on May 26, 2012, 02:26:56 PM
Get big watts. You'll regret it if you dont.

+1.

100-150 seems to be mega loud but something like a Crown XLS 1000 is only $300. I have an 8 ohm 2x12 and an 8 ohm 4x12, each 300 watts RMS handling, sometimes I only use one of them. I want to make sure I don't buy something that is too powerful if I'm really cranking although I've read that it's best to go double the power of speakers RMS handling for solid state.

XLS 1000 info:
"Minimum Guaranteed Power (per channel, both channels driven)"
- Stereo, 2 ohms: 550W
- Stereo, 4 ohms: 350W
- Stereo, 8 ohms: 215W
- Bridged mono, 4 ohms: 1100W
- Bridged mono, 8 ohms: 700W

Based on this it looks like I would go 8 ohms stereo for 215 watts for each cab, that's pretty serious power unless it would actually be 4 ohms stereo because of the 2 cab thing. I'm a bit confused. Bridged for one cab looks to be speaker suicide.

Some of these things use fans to cool them so I'm thinking if the fan takes a shit you're done unless you want to risk overheating. I don't like that idea but if it's the norm it's the norm.

Curious about the various classes of power as well, A/B vs D, etc..

I'm Google searching but it's harder to find info on using solid state power amps for guitar.

Quote from: Hemisaurus on May 26, 2012, 10:23:09 AM
So, both your solid state amps are loud enough and clean enough for you when used through the back door all you need is a volume control?

Actually it's hard to say. I'm still not that used to judging my tone when I really crank because it changes in various ways. To avoid clipping the idea of going huge on power sounds pretty wise.

With unlimited funds and a roadie I think an all tube 300 watt SVT would probably do me right as a power amp  ;D

I have an Randall RG100SC 2x12 combo, pretty good for high-gain sludgy tones.

I hope I can get $150 for it.

Buddy has a Mosvalve 500 he wants to sell, I've read they put out 360w at 8 ohms. Because it's solid state I'm not sure if that would be 60 watts more than each of my 300 watt cabs could handle although I suspect I'd have to have the thing almost at 10 to actually put out the full 360 watts. I'll try the unit this week and see what I think about it.

All the waffling, sniping, and off-topic tube amp talk makes this thread one of the most frustrating reads in the Jam Room.

Shit or get off the pot, already, fer crissake...

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 27, 2012, 01:18:08 PM
Buddy has a Mosvalve 500 he wants to sell, I've read they put out 360w at 8 ohms. Because it's solid state I'm not sure if that would be 60 watts more than each of my 300 watt cabs could handle although I suspect I'd have to have the thing almost at 10 to actually put out the full 360 watts. I'll try the unit this week and see what I think about it.

I doubt you'd ever turn it up anywhere near full volume so that extra 60 Watts shouldn't ever be a problem. How much is he looking for for it? Defo worth trying out at least.

Actually it's 250 a side for the Mosvalve so just using one side of the stereo will have you at 250 or 180 at 8 Ohm.

Quote from: RacerX on May 27, 2012, 01:40:49 PM
Shit or get off the pot, already, fer crissake...

Was this commented directed towards me? I've been shitting, a lot. I've been learning, a lot. I've bought 2 heads, 2 pedals, and a cab since starting this thread and will probably buy my friend's Mosvalve 500 which I just picked up to try out.

I will try to lurk and search more and ask fewer questions from now on.

SORRY.

Quote from: moose23 on May 27, 2012, 02:32:06 PM

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 27, 2012, 01:18:08 PM
Buddy has a Mosvalve 500 he wants to sell, I've read they put out 360w at 8 ohms. Because it's solid state I'm not sure if that would be 60 watts more than each of my 300 watt cabs could handle although I suspect I'd have to have the thing almost at 10 to actually put out the full 360 watts. I'll try the unit this week and see what I think about it.

I doubt you'd ever turn it up anywhere near full volume so that extra 60 Watts shouldn't ever be a problem. How much is he looking for for it? Defo worth trying out at least.

Actually it's 250 a side for the Mosvalve so just using one side of the stereo will have you at 250 or 180 at 8 Ohm.

Cool, good to know. I think I read some bullshit on another forum that wasn't correct. He only wants $175 for it and I hear they are becoming more sought after. Tomorrow morning it's getting cranked up. I will report back and hopefully those who are annoyed by this thread will stop reading it.

edit: just figured out the line level vs instrument level issue. The TM has a complete ready to be amplified sound in every way aside from being short on decibels. I should have an actual preamp for a line level signal. Will look for a clean and transparent pedal unit to throw on my pedalboard.

You'll have plenty of power on tap with the Mosvalve so I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of level from the tight metal just yet.

Good point. I'll know in the morning. Found this which could do the trick if need be-

(http://www.drumza.com/images/EbtechLLS2LineLevelShifter.jpg)



Might speaker wire gauge size(amp to cab and internal cab) be an issue? The manual says "380 Watts RMS at 4 ohms one channel driven". If I'm using one 8 ohm speaker that's still a lot of juice. I don't think cab manufacturers generally assume you might be throwing that kind of power at a guitar cab even if it's rated at 300 watts handling. I don't want to melt anything.

Turned the Mosvalve all the way up just now, maybe loud enough for band practice but I'll need a signal closer to line level to see it's real potential. More Google searching underway.

The yoke above will work but one of us builders on the board could make you up something specifically for the job you need. Obviously any clean boost with 14dB on tap will also work.

Quote from: moose23 on May 28, 2012, 02:50:21 PM
The yoke above will work but one of us builders on the board could make you up something specifically for the job you need. Obviously any clean boost with 14dB on tap will also work.

14db is all it takes? The Mosvalve is 775 MV at 0db. I'm assuming that I need a certain level of signal to actually get the amp to maximum performance although I can't imagine ever needing full power from it. At the moment just with the tightmetal it barely hurts my ears on 10. A different friend of mine is trying to sell his old Sunn slave unit and it's even more quiet than the Mos. Found an interesting and hopefully accurate website explaining preamps and signals- http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/preamp.shtml

I found this sentence interesting- "A "clean boost" pedal may commonly offer 20 or 30 dB of gain, but it may take 50 or 60 dB gain to bring the output of a bass or guitar up to the level needed to drive a typical power amp."

Going back to last page...

the "volume" attenuator knobs on a PA style power amp are actually more like 'sensitivity'. Even with the levels all the way down, the amp will output full power if the input signal is strong enough. Think about that. It seems like 'volume' and reacts like 'volume' but it's input sensitivity. You're supposed to run a PA amp 'wide open'. I dunno about "doubling" speaker RMS, if I were you I would go for a 1 to 1 match on amp power/speaker's "continuous" rating. (example: speakers are 1200/600/300, go with a 300 watt amp) A bass or guitar is a continuous signal. You'll also be getting additional gain from distortion pedals. You'll have plenty of power on tap. This is the safest way to go. If you need more volume, add speakers.

I can appreciate the PA/preamp approach, but using a "head" is usually more of a no brainer, easier to carry, no hidden costs (roadcase? EQ? Cables?) and less complicated to understand, hook up, run safely, and troubleshoot. Unless you have special needs, just run what everybody else runs (a head) IMO.

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 29, 2012, 12:43:07 AM

Quote from: moose23 on May 28, 2012, 02:50:21 PM
The yoke above will work but one of us builders on the board could make you up something specifically for the job you need. Obviously any clean boost with 14dB on tap will also work.

14db is all it takes? The Mosvalve is 775 MV at 0db. I'm assuming that I need a certain level of signal to actually get the amp to maximum performance although I can't imagine ever needing full power from it. At the moment just with the tightmetal it barely hurts my ears on 10. A different friend of mine is trying to sell his old Sunn slave unit and it's even more quiet than the Mos. Found an interesting and hopefully accurate website explaining preamps and signals- http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/preamp.shtml

I found this sentence interesting- "A "clean boost" pedal may commonly offer 20 or 30 dB of gain, but it may take 50 or 60 dB gain to bring the output of a bass or guitar up to the level needed to drive a typical power amp."

Well +14dBu is what you ideally need but considering the Mosvalve is .775V I think you'll be alright with a fairly standard boost. You'd need twice that or more for a power amp with a higher input sensitivity.

Can you try running the tightmetal/mosvalve combo into a second cab and so you can hear the difference doubling up your speakers makes?

Quote from: Lumpy on May 29, 2012, 01:09:56 AM
Going back to last page...

the "volume" attenuator knobs on a PA style power amp are actually more like 'sensitivity'. Even with the levels all the way down, the amp will output full power if the input signal is strong enough. Think about that. It seems like 'volume' and reacts like 'volume' but it's input sensitivity. You're supposed to run a PA amp 'wide open'. I dunno about "doubling" speaker RMS, if I were you I would go for a 1 to 1 match on amp power/speaker's "continuous" rating. (example: speakers are 1200/600/300, go with a 300 watt amp) A bass or guitar is a continuous signal. You'll also be getting additional gain from distortion pedals. You'll have plenty of power on tap. This is the safest way to go. If you need more volume, add speakers.

I can appreciate the PA/preamp approach, but using a "head" is usually more of a no brainer, easier to carry, no hidden costs (roadcase? EQ? Cables?) and less complicated to understand, hook up, run safely, and troubleshoot. Unless you have special needs, just run what everybody else runs (a head) IMO.

Sensitivity, ah okay. Makes sense. Wide open and then the preamp controls how loud you are.

I'll forget about that double power thing. I think what I read was with regards to bass gear and didn't make sense to me in the first place.

Yeah a regular head would be easier, what head though? I've explained the issues I've experienced with the 3 I currently own. The tube Laney GH is somewhat acceptable for now but I want more headroom. Even if I had a head with a real clean channel the TightMetal might not sound that great through it.

The good thing about rack roadcases is that you can seal them up from the elements for transport. $175(Mosvalve) for all that power is hard to turn down. If I can get some sort of small pedal to stick on my board that can convert the signal to 775 MV and control volume in the same way that rack and amp preamps do I'd be set. The TightMetal needs nothing more than a bit of eqing from my Boss EQ pedal. I don't want a regular preamp adding additional color. I could a/b box switch on my pedalboard to a Sansamp or something for an amp'd sounding clean tone if I need that in the future but of course that's another $100+ at least. It never ends.. but I'm close. Reverb too, I need one of those.

Quote from: moose23 on May 29, 2012, 04:43:21 AM
Well +14dBu is what you ideally need but considering the Mosvalve is .775V I think you'll be alright with a fairly standard boost. You'd need twice that or more for a power amp with a higher input sensitivity.

Can you try running the tightmetal/mosvalve combo into a second cab and so you can hear the difference doubling up your speakers makes?

Ah. And then I would just use either the boost or the power amp gain knob to control volume?

I've been running two 8 ohm cabs with it. It's a bit louder than one but not much. The 2x12 seems to be louder than the 4x12. It's fairly loud right now but nothing like it would be with a proper signal.

Have you tried switching the effects loop on the Tightmetal to post, and taking the signal out the send jack? Are you running the Tightmetal on 9V or 18V, according to the manual you should be able to bypass an amps preamp and go straight into power amp in. I'd think about getting in touch with Amptweaker and asking, perhaps they'd mod the pedal if it needs it.

So in summary:

• Tightmetal into FX return on Ampeg SS or Laney SS, sounds good, but too loud.
• Tightmetal into MOSValve is too quiet.

Solutions:

• For about $10 worth of parts, I can build a passive volume control for you, it's a pot, in a metal box, with a couple of jacks, use Ampeg or Laney.
• For about $30, you can get an LPB-1 and boost the signal 20dB, if you already have a boost, an OD, or even a small mixer, you can try any one of them to raise the output of the Tightmetal for the Mosvalve.

Just had a look at the manual:

"Add an overdrive/booster pedal in the Effects Loop (set to Post) to give more output level to this pedal."

Quote from: Hemisaurus on May 29, 2012, 08:56:44 AM
Have you tried switching the effects loop on the Tightmetal to post, and taking the signal out the send jack? Are you running the Tightmetal on 9V or 18V, according to the manual you should be able to bypass an amps preamp and go straight into power amp in. I'd think about getting in touch with Amptweaker and asking, perhaps they'd mod the pedal if it needs it.

So in summary:

• Tightmetal into FX return on Ampeg SS or Laney SS, sounds good, but too loud.
• Tightmetal into MOSValve is too quiet.

Solutions:

• For about $10 worth of parts, I can build a passive volume control for you, it's a pot, in a metal box, with a couple of jacks, use Ampeg or Laney.
• For about $30, you can get an LPB-1 and boost the signal 20dB, if you already have a boost, an OD, or even a small mixer, you can try any one of them to raise the output of the Tightmetal for the Mosvalve.

I only have a second here before work..

"Have you tried switching the effects loop on the Tightmetal to post, and taking the signal out the send jack?"

No. What would be the difference between this and the regular pedal out jack? I don't get the point of effects loops with pedals like this.

Running 18v for a tighter sound. I'm not sure if it actually sound different or not.

I have bypassed the preamps of all of my amps. The Laney's master volume works when I do this and it also has an effects loops volume knob on that back so it gets loud enough when used this way but being a 50 watt tube head it breaks up before I would like it to, otherwise it's fine when used this way although I would like more clean headroom.

When I bypass the Ampeg's preamp it's master volume knob is also bypassed and it doesn't have an effects loop volume knob. Not loud enough, like the Mosvalve because nothing is upping the signal closer to .775 or so.

I sent Amptweaker a message last night about using the amp with a power amp. Why would I want them to mod it other than to put out a .775mv signal?

I have a small mixer, I'll try that. I also like the idea of the $30 LPB-1 so long as it would give me the same volume from the Mosvalve as a rack type preamp would, there is no point in getting a 500 watt amp if I can't get 500 watt type volume out of it, you know?

Quote from: moose23 on May 29, 2012, 10:54:44 AM
Just had a look at the manual:

"Add an overdrive/booster pedal in the Effects Loop (set to Post) to give more output level to this pedal."

What is the difference between this and simply running a boost after the regular output jack?

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 29, 2012, 01:52:20 PM

Quote from: moose23 on May 29, 2012, 10:54:44 AM
Just had a look at the manual:

"Add an overdrive/booster pedal in the Effects Loop (set to Post) to give more output level to this pedal."

What is the difference between this and simply running a boost after the regular output jack?

Try it and find out.

As for the pre/post switch try it and find out.

Quote from: moose23 on May 29, 2012, 05:32:25 PM

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 29, 2012, 01:52:20 PM

Quote from: moose23 on May 29, 2012, 10:54:44 AM
Just had a look at the manual:

"Add an overdrive/booster pedal in the Effects Loop (set to Post) to give more output level to this pedal."

What is the difference between this and simply running a boost after the regular output jack?

Try it and find out.

As for the pre/post switch try it and find out.

Tomorrow I will try the effects loop out and will also try the mixer. Will probably order an LPB-1.

edit: not seeing the LPB-1 for less than $40 online.

Got an email back from none other than James Amptweaker Brown himself who suggested that I try an 18V boost pedal. I'm thinking a 9 is probably fine if that $30 LPB-1 is 9. It's nice when a piece of gear isn't a billion dollars once in awhile.

The last thing I am unsure about is the gauge of the cab wire and cab to speaker cables for handling 250 watts. Assuming the cabs have 16 or 18.

Man, you are putting too much thought into it. Unless you're using forty feet of speaker cable to go from head to cab, energy loss and heat dissipation won't be an issue, nor will the resistance become a factor. Plug the fucking cable into the cabinet, plug your pedals into the amp, plug guitar into pedals, and fucking play the thing. You're trying to re-invent the wheel, when in actuality you're going to end up with a guitar tone that sounds like the rest of the "metal world."

I think your "gain" search is in vain, because most of the best metal tones in history have been a result of "less gain" more "good guitar playing."


^^^CRATE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

^^^CRATE^^^^^^^^

^^^^SOLID STATE MARSHALL^^^^^^

^^^^^^^^HM-2 + JCM800's^^^^^^

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/bloodbath/209134-bloodbath-equipment.html (http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/bloodbath/209134-bloodbath-equipment.html)

Also, what the FUCK? Bloodbath posts on forums? That RULES.

Quote from: SunnO))) on May 30, 2012, 02:07:04 AM
Man, you are putting too much thought into it. Unless you're using forty feet of speaker cable to go from head to cab, energy loss and heat dissipation won't be an issue, nor will the resistance become a factor. Plug the fucking cable into the cabinet, plug your pedals into the amp, plug guitar into pedals, and fucking play the thing. You're trying to re-invent the wheel, when in actuality you're going to end up with a guitar tone that sounds like the rest of the "metal world."

I think your "gain" search is in vain, because most of the best metal tones in history have been a result of "less gain" more "good guitar playing."

I suck balls at guitar relatively speaking but I can strike a power chord just fine and THE LANEY WASN'T WORKING OUT SO I'M TRYING NEW SHIT, okay? Holy fuck. If some of you are so sick of me and this thread why do you keep posting in it? Am I making sense? I think I've asked some very reasonable questions for someone who has never owned a SS head or used a power amp before. You yourself were talking about running a Metal Zone(of all things) straight into a power amp!

I'm not reinventing the wheel, I JUST NEED A LINE LEVEL SIGNAL and I'm getting a boost to do so which will probably mean the end of this thread now that I know I won't burn or melt anything running upwards of 500 watts. I'm not a fucking amp builder or electronics tech school guy, okay? I'll definitely think twice before starting another thread here.

You offer suggestions and then get pissed off when people don't IMMEDIATELY follow them. That's not how life works. I APPRECIATE what you've had to say about amps, Les Pauls, etc but there are many options these days as you know and learning about and experimenting with gear is a process that takes time and at times quite a bit of thought and consideration.

My gain search is in vain... I should just use whatever gear I've got and be done with it, as if that's what you do? That's a joke. JCM800? No thanks, not spending that kind of money.

I don't play extreme metal by the way so those clips, yeah I can hear the tone but the context is off. I fully realize that the sound I'm going for is very metal normal. And? It's what I want right now. Do you think I believe I'm going for something special or out of the ordinary? $180 is a lot for a pedal but it's a lot less than what an 800 or a Mesa costs. Okay I'm done, fuck this thread. Someone please delete it.


edit: I overreacted a bit. Thanks for all the info everyone.

We're not gonna delete an entire thread because shit gets itchy, man, come on. Tell these dudes to fuck off, and know they have every right to do the same...

There's a shitload of good info in this thread, despite the butthurt; for that reason alone it stays.

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 30, 2012, 01:09:51 AM
The last thing I am unsure about is the gauge of the cab wire and cab to speaker cables for handling 250 watts. Assuming the cabs have 16 or 18.

As long as you're using speaker cable and not instrument cable you'll be fine. Remember bass players have been running upwards of 250 for a long long time and using the same cables as guitarists.

For future reference have a look at the Sansamp Character series, some great sounds there and they all put out line level and more for running straight into a power amp. There's a Mesa and a Marshall sounding one among others.



This thread sure delivers on all counts.

Everyone remain calm and keep your arms inside the bus.

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 30, 2012, 02:51:51 AM
I'm not reinventing the wheel, I JUST NEED A LINE LEVEL SIGNAL and I'm getting a boost to do so which will probably mean the end of this thread now that I know I won't burn or melt anything running upwards of 500 watts.

If you want a line level signal from an instrument level one, you just need to get a channel strip. Or one of those ART preamps, they are small an nice. But you might find that you are jsut using a term you heard for what you think you want, and it isn't actually what you think it means.

That ART suggestion might be the best suggestion so far.

Quote from: liquidsmoke on May 30, 2012, 02:51:51 AM

Quote from: SunnO))) on May 30, 2012, 02:07:04 AM
Man, you are putting too much thought into it. Unless you're using forty feet of speaker cable to go from head to cab, energy loss and heat dissipation won't be an issue, nor will the resistance become a factor. Plug the fucking cable into the cabinet, plug your pedals into the amp, plug guitar into pedals, and fucking play the thing. You're trying to re-invent the wheel, when in actuality you're going to end up with a guitar tone that sounds like the rest of the "metal world."

I think your "gain" search is in vain, because most of the best metal tones in history have been a result of "less gain" more "good guitar playing."

I suck balls at guitar relatively speaking but I can strike a power chord just fine and THE LANEY WASN'T WORKING OUT SO I'M TRYING NEW SHIT, okay? Holy fuck. If some of you are so sick of me and this thread why do you keep posting in it? Am I making sense? I think I've asked some very reasonable questions for someone who has never owned a SS head or used a power amp before. You yourself were talking about running a Metal Zone(of all things) straight into a power amp!

I'm not reinventing the wheel, I JUST NEED A LINE LEVEL SIGNAL and I'm getting a boost to do so which will probably mean the end of this thread now that I know I won't burn or melt anything running upwards of 500 watts. I'm not a fucking amp builder or electronics tech school guy, okay? I'll definitely think twice before starting another thread here.

You offer suggestions and then get pissed off when people don't IMMEDIATELY follow them. That's not how life works. I APPRECIATE what you've had to say about amps, Les Pauls, etc but there are many options these days as you know and learning about and experimenting with gear is a process that takes time and at times quite a bit of thought and consideration.

My gain search is in vain... I should just use whatever gear I've got and be done with it, as if that's what you do? That's a joke. JCM800? No thanks, not spending that kind of money.

I don't play extreme metal by the way so those clips, yeah I can hear the tone but the context is off. I fully realize that the sound I'm going for is very metal normal. And? It's what I want right now. Do you think I believe I'm going for something special or out of the ordinary? $180 is a lot for a pedal but it's a lot less than what an 800 or a Mesa costs. Okay I'm done, fuck this thread. Someone please delete it.


edit: I overreacted a bit. Thanks for all the info everyone.

I don't give a FUCK if you follow my suggestions, you just seem to be AVOIDING all of the reasonable ones and can't seem to figure out why your tone is less than you want it to be, and now you seem to be diving into the "well, if I change speaker cables I heard that you can get more high end out of orange ones than black ones" territory. You have one of the sickest preamps imaginable, and a gigantic poweramp for it to push. I don't quite understand what else you could want. Get an EQ, put it POST, get a compressor, put it PRE, and play the guitar, dude. If you want UNBEATABLE CLARITY and PERFECT NOTE SEPARATION, get a VHT to or a Fortin, an Engl, etc. Get a fuckin' ADA preamp for your poweramp. I'm glad you have questions and shit, but I get pretty pissy, after "tone searching" for several years, I find that plugging my guitar in and twiddling a knob or two on most amps will get pretty much what I'm looking for. It isn't rocket science. Understand the tone stack, and you can eq in or out pretty much anything.

I'm not really sorry for being a dick, it really rustles my jimmies when everyone gives you proper, good advice, and for the most part... you ignore it and start changing around nitpicky shit like pilot light color (exaggeration.)

Three things ;)

• Play Nice
• liquidsmoke, put 20dB in the search box, this topic has been covered extensively in other thread (Sunn, much more needs to be stickied to avoid this)
• Part of my gratuitous wall of speakers was wired together with 18ga wire of the kind that you get out of the dollar store, that was 2800W or so, 500W is nothing, doesn't even merit a Speakon

Yeah, but I dont want to litter up the board with stickies. You want to make a thread that I lock with wholly general information that gets no replies only additions as questions are asked through other threads? That we can do, but Im not stickying a bunch of bickering and bullshit, ya feel me?

"Play nice," sez the guy who defaced a few pages of the thread with off-topic toob amp posts.

Is passive-aggressiveness "playing nice"? Just sayin'.

for real tho guys...










whats the best speaker cable for metal?

what is downtuning?

what is... tuning?

What is music, for that matter?

Wat iz notez?

Quote from: SunnO))) on May 30, 2012, 11:58:22 AM
Yeah, but I dont want to litter up the board with stickies. You want to make a thread that I lock with wholly general information that gets no replies only additions as questions are asked through other threads? That we can do, but Im not stickying a bunch of bickering and bullshit, ya feel me?

Err, maybe ???

How about one sticky thread of 'General Technical Info' for both amps and guitars and pedals and stuff, that we add to as any new question arises, and one sticky thread for technical questions, the technical Q thread is full of crap right now, and doesn't need to be 30 pages long. We could condense that into a couple of pages of useful, understandable information.

fuck the internet alltogether
youre all invited to drumcircle/holistic massage/dance around maypole/jamband weedout
at my place this weekend where we can work out this tension
with face to face encounters and good vibes

my address is www.myfilthytent.com
its located near my heiny hole

some general info threads would be nice, possibly with moderated input so we dont clutter that fuckin shit up.

What we really need is a wiki, that we can constantly refer people to in a patronising manner. There'll be techy fights in it though. About speaker power handling.

And which speaker cables are best for taming high end

No point in me responding to any of that.

Looking into ART stuff.

This thread needs more Crate.

(http://www.jedistar.com/images/crate_amp.jpg)

dammit dude
you dug up my buried treasure

gotta give LS some credit for playin' it cool like that 8)
congrats bro, you win the internet

The $30 ART unit adds too much distortion even when not clipping. Taking it back to the store.

Keeping the Ampeg. It fucking rules. Plenty of headroom. Can turn up the tightmetal volume somewhat without changing it's tone and even that is enough for practice volume. With an EH boost pedal I should be good. Not Buzzo loud but whatever. Will a/b split the signal to the TM for dirt and a Behr Sans clone for cleans and maybe effects and then back to a second a/b reversed.

Done with all of this, finally.  :) :) :)

Randall are good amps.