Doesn't it suck having to deal with other people's ideas? Usually when yours are better? Or they ignore or don't want to try your ideas, which are great and would make a given section or tune the best music ever created? Or maybe they just constantly have gear issues (fucking gear heads)? Or maybe just getting them to stop making a noise and concentrate on playing/writing music instead of fucking about?
How do you deal with these issues?
The same way I deal with most things: scissoring, but with buttholes.
Hmm. I'll give that a try.
Do the Raw Power thing and sneak in to the studio the night before sending the recording off to be mastered, then insert superior song bit.
They'll thank you in the end.
No, really if you're a Type A kind of guy, then it's tough to be in a band with other headstrong dudes. The only thing I can figure would work, would be to write songs independently. If dude has a song idea, then it's his. Do what he say, then bring your own song and make sure they do what you say. This all needs to be prefaced with the understanding that that is how you all will write your songs. Set boundaries, don't cross them and don't allow them to be crossed.
Otherwise you fight a lot. Band dissolves, and then you all are back to the drawing board. This is where most bands with multiple 'leaders' end up anyways.
well you have gotta realize:
1) how important are your ideas. you may consider forming a project.
2) what does their leadership mean to you. if they are leading, but no meaningful results, then they are fake leaders and I don't deal well with that. sometimes leaders are the ones that supply the practice space and book gigs etc, and then you gotta be the follower in that case.
How do I deal with it? I buy a bunch of synths and assorted accoutrements and hole up in the studio/basement. by myself!
How about when they don't bring any actual music to the table but try to tell you what type of styles to play when you write? Fucking super.
Just like with romantic relationships, if it doesn't feel right and you can't fix it, end it.
Quote from: Chest Rockwell on August 27, 2014, 06:28:06 AM
Doesn't it suck having to deal with other people's ideas? Usually when yours are better? Or they ignore or don't want to try your ideas, which are great and would make a given section or tune the best music ever created? Or maybe they just constantly have gear issues (fucking gear heads)? Or maybe just getting them to stop making a noise and concentrate on playing/writing music instead of fucking about?
How do you deal with these issues?
the other dude is probably posting the same post in his online forum
nothing personal, but this sounds super egotistical and quite dickish.....
although, we don't know the rules of the band. if it was CR and HIS posse. it's all about following CR's leadership. if it is a common interest group, then why wouldn't all ideas be of equivalent value, or at least all be considered in the mix?
if you are a punk rocker, you get a pass, otherwise I think you may have some issues.
its all about chemistry..you either got it or you don't. there are degrees of chemistry. don't get me wrong. but you either got it or you don't..
Easy solution. If everyone doesn't agree on an idea it's not being used. Period. The other thing to consider is maybe this guy isn't the right person for you to be in a band with...I've run into issues personally where people say they like doom/sludge but they only like a handful of bands that incorporate these elements and aren't actual fans of the genre.
In Sleazy Cortez i bring em to the table and then those guys usually make em even better. A lot of times I wish they'd know what I have in mind a little better but with communication and patience we usually end up making some goodness. It is hard to get them to calm down and groove sometimes but hey in a threepiece it sure helps when everyone is badass at their instruments. We're going into the studio on Sunday, so buy our album.
8)
Jibber, my post was meant humorously/sarcastically, that should have been pretty obvious. Although the question is a genuine one, and it's obviously a universal issue.
my main band Thorun has been going over four years now and we do bang heads but when the sweet riffs flow or we hit the occasional sweet spot, writers block gets swept away. There are no major difficulties and we definitely have at least two 'Type A' guys (me and one of the guitarists), but neither of us walk up with fully formed ideas. I'm totally guilty of not putting shit together myself.
My skills, if I say so myself, are building tunes and 'hearing' where shit should or shouldnt go, and maybe how many times this or that could or shouldnt happen, etc etc. (I cant play guitar or drums for shit, but they can, very well!). I put this down to 25 years of devouring Metal and other music and just enjoying a nice groove. avoid the clunky and the boring, keep the interest up. Sometimes we hit it and sometimes we have filler. Hopefully we get better with time. ---> we're also totally a democratic team btw. no-one rules anything, hopefully best ideas rise to the top.
I think we've learned to live with eachother reasonably well, as we're still together (*sheds tear*)
the other band is newer. more garage/loose heavy rock, and seems to have a mix of nearly 'Type A's, we write pretty fast but as this isn't my main band I'll hang back more and just 'do bass'. I'm cool with that.
it's obviously an issue tho. funny, maintaining a band is as much about personal relations as it is about music. You always think it sucks when you find out your fave bands have guys that dont like eachother or dont hang out... and then you start a band and go... 'oh' :o
;D
Interesting that you're actively creative in your band as a bass player.
I've had little creative input in bands I play bass in, partially because my own playing is so dependent on kick/snare pattern and tying it in with the guitar part that I kind of have to wait until drums/guitar are figured out before I can really write a bass line. If either of them change anything, I need to re-evaluate what I'm doing.
I write lots of music but don't write basslines by themselves. So if I come in with an idea, the bass line by itself might not make a whole lot of sense unless I say 'here's the kick/snare pattern, here is a basic guitar part'.
In a group writing session I can suggest a chord change, but can't really drive and direct the jams on bass the way I can on guitar.
Quote from: Danny G on August 28, 2014, 10:27:27 AM
I've had little creative input in bands I play bass in, partially because my own playing is so dependent on kick/snare pattern and tying it in with the guitar part that I kind of have to wait until drums/guitar are figured out before I can really write a bass line. If either of them change anything, I need to re-evaluate what I'm doing.
I write lots of music but don't write basslines by themselves. So if I come in with an idea, the bass line by itself might not make a whole lot of sense unless I say 'here's the kick/snare pattern, here is a basic guitar part'.
In a group writing session I can suggest a chord change, but can't really drive and direct the jams on bass the way I can on guitar.
I agree with this. when I play bass I feel the note choice is limited by the root note and the guitar cords played, and rhythym limited by drums. bass is like the afterthought that glues it all together. for bass, I will bring in a song and then I feel creative about it. sometimes on bass I step on my distortion pedal so it is more like guitar when I want to engrain a certain rhythym and choice of root note/tune on the others, but that seems to be the only way to be the leader on bass (I am not a singer but I bet singer/bass player types can lead and be more creative in the song structure).
I write on bass a lot, mostly because I have it set so I am basically playing guitar anyways. The guitarist in my band is mostly a chord player, no flourish... So i get to take over when it's called for. I usually hang back and throw down octaves, big slides and fuck with the drummer by throwing in notes on weird accents.
Quote from: everdrone on August 28, 2014, 11:00:26 AM
(I am not a singer but I bet singer/bass player types can lead and be more creative in the song structure).
Cream.
The best advice I think I can give is to try to be as open minded as possible. We all like to think that we are, but it's not always the reality.
You describe yourself as a very immersed listener of music, so you will know very well how some albums might not vibe with you on the first—or even the first several listens. Some even take years. But for me, those "difficult" albums have far and away become some of my favorite albums of all time.
So try to apply that context to the songcraft in your group. If a riff, arrangement, use of an effect, or whatever doesn't sit right at first (or even for the first several times), try to give it the benefit of longevity and thoughtfulness. If it's still an aberration, what can you do to help fix it? Simplify it? Shorten it? Complicate it? Add a hook? Change the key? Write a complimentary part? Change the arrangement? There's an infinite number of things to try. But, being mortal, there's only so much we have the time or talent to overcome.
But the single most important part is that we are open minded about the process, which everyone involved in a collaboration like a rock band can respect. In fact, that might even something that one should demand of bandmates.
Plus, butthole scissoring is a quick way to end a difference of opinion.
haha, yeah you got me. I thought you were serious and I was trying to be candid in case you were about to screw up.
I play bass and can only play bass. I'm better at drums than I am at guitar so there's not really a middle ground when I play with my band. I learned to play by ear mostly so I think I wouldn't do well with guitar players that are theoretically better versed than me unless they could show it to me. We jam pretty much always. I start playing something or the drummer starts playing a drum beat he has in his head and we go off from there. Once we start it's pretty much "we'll keep on playing and see where it leads". Sometimes it leads us to cool places, other times it's just not it. Once we got something good, we record it for memory's sake. Usually both of us will listen to it at home and suggest arrangement or add a new part/variation to it. Once in a blue moon we meet up to solely listen to every recording we have and take notes on everything.
In terms of ideas besides the songs (placement in set, titles, ...), I usually have stuff floating in my head and take those to band practice. If the other dudes like it, we do that. If not, I come up with new stuff.
My problem is I can't even get people to start a band with me anymore, no one will show up consistently. I sit at home and write songs, record demos, setup auditions and....nothing. I've tried out almost a dozen drummers in the past 6 months, any that are interested just flake and never show up again. Can't get any guitarists without a drummer locked down. I started putting up ads to find a band to join, just so I can play regularly, nothing. I've had a couple people outside the situation pose to me that maybe I'm intimidating people with being too organized and motivated, but that makes it sound like I'm too good for other musicians and I'm definitely not.
Maybe I need to change my deodorant brand.
Quote from: Corey Y on August 28, 2014, 04:31:48 PM
My problem is I can't even get people to start a band with me anymore, no one will show up consistently. I sit at home and write songs, record demos, setup auditions and....nothing. I've tried out almost a dozen drummers in the past 6 months, any that are interested just flake and never show up again. Can't get any guitarists without a drummer locked down. I started putting up ads to find a band to join, just so I can play regularly, nothing. I've had a couple people outside the situation pose to me that maybe I'm intimidating people with being too organized and motivated, but that makes it sound like I'm too good for other musicians and I'm definitely not.
Maybe I need to change my deodorant brand.
you live in Salinas, CA right? I have lived there before. I jammed with some rock musicians like only one time when I lived there. Do you speak Spanish? If music were super important to me and I did not like Tejano Music, I would prolly move, that may be the issue there since you are pretty good at heavy rock ;)
Quote from: everdrone on August 28, 2014, 04:45:57 PM
Quote from: Corey Y on August 28, 2014, 04:31:48 PM
My problem is I can't even get people to start a band with me anymore, no one will show up consistently. I sit at home and write songs, record demos, setup auditions and....nothing. I've tried out almost a dozen drummers in the past 6 months, any that are interested just flake and never show up again. Can't get any guitarists without a drummer locked down. I started putting up ads to find a band to join, just so I can play regularly, nothing. I've had a couple people outside the situation pose to me that maybe I'm intimidating people with being too organized and motivated, but that makes it sound like I'm too good for other musicians and I'm definitely not.
Maybe I need to change my deodorant brand.
you live in Salinas, CA right? I have lived there before. I jammed with some rock musicians like only one time when I lived there. Do you speak Spanish? If music were super important to me and I did not like Tejano Music, I would prolly move, that may be the issue there since you are pretty good at heavy rock ;)
Yep, It's totally the location, but I don't have enough financial freedom to justify moving someplace better for playing live music. Right now I'm the sole earner in the house, my wife isn't working until our baby is weaned, we have a mortgage. I've been willing to drive to Santa Cruz, San Jose or San Francisco to start or join a band, but can't seem to find anyone. I have noticed lately that all the dudes who want a bassist for a doom or sludge band say things like "we don't anyone old, like over 25"...yikes lol. I've put up ads looking for people to start something or bands to join on the SF Craigslist, no luck so far. The wife and I almost moved to the NOVA/MD/WV area 4 or 5 years ago, but she didn't get the job she was interviewing for. Now I talk to a ton of people around those parts who are constantly telling me if I was closer they'd totally start a band with me. I get that a lot from the east coast doombros lol.
I've been trying to get more freelance recording and mixing work. If I can work up to earning enough to pay bills doing that or even that plus some part time work, I know my wife would be down to move. She's pretty easy going and supportive, but I'm not quite in that position right now, at all.
cool brutha, that makes sense
Believe me, I want to move. Salinas is a shit hole, in several ways. We're shooting for selling our house by the time the kid is 5 at the latest, if even remotely possible.
I lived in the getto there in Salinas (NOT impressed) where there are groups of adults gathering in numbers in the daytime, and the migrating farmworkers raise hell at night. they had prison breakouts and I had to stay indoors, and the houses have bars on the windows. cars with the thumper sound systems. that was in 2001, and there was not even a bookstore in that city really!
last year I lived in San Antonio, not many musicians and live music venues there either, but gotta make the best of whats around. maybe cast your net a bit wider and consider other genres in addition to heavy rock. I dig blues and maybe some types of Indie, and cover bands are a good standby. not sure that there are that many gigging opportunities for any bands in Salinas though except for young bands at high school parties maybe the junior college there, only 150,000 people in Salinas and it is farmworker capital steinbeck territory...
ya I would wanna play in santa cruz or monterey too but would not want the 40 minute commute
the craigslist Salinas ads look abismal: http://salina.craigslist.org/search/muc?query=+
austin ads are just tons of musicians: http://austin.craigslist.org/muc/
come to Austin dude!
I agree with most of what has been said. I am generally the type A/Leader in my bands, and start projects by writing songs and making demos to get people interested. I understand and value the importance of the input that other players can give, but even then I still try to see my vision through as far as possible. You have to be assertive to a degree or else you're ideas are important to you, i.e. that's the music you want to be doing. I couldn't just sit around with a group of people and hope that something I think is cool happens. That's what jams are for. When working with other people with strong opinions, if they have skill to back it up then it makes it a whole lot easier to deal with. I agree that some great ideas are not always so evidently great on the first listen(s), and vice versa. It really does help to take a step back sometimes and let things happen naturally within a context. The cream will rise to the top, or not. No one person has it all figured out, which is why I rely on working with solid people to see my dreams through to reality, and to help me try things and realize what is working and what isn't.
Writing on bass is a great thing if you keep the drumbeat in mind. That's where to oomph is. Writing bass and drums first has helped me write tunes that make people move. Thinking about guitar riffs first usually creates more heady music, with doesn't necessarily lend itself to movement, other than headbanging and air guitar...which is fun, if not particularly interesting to anyone other than riff worshipers if the rhythm is not grounding your body.
Quote from: eyeprod on August 29, 2014, 01:32:59 AM
Writing on bass is a great thing if you keep the drumbeat in mind. That's where to oomph is. Writing bass and drums first has helped me write tunes that make people move. Thinking about guitar riffs first usually creates more heady music, with doesn't necessarily lend itself to movement, other than headbanging and air guitar...which is fun, if not particularly interesting to anyone other than riff worshipers if the rhythm is not grounding your body.
noted.......
heh, bolt would have told me to "give it a rest".
but seriously, this is a cool concept to ponder and try out.
I may be totally screwed. I usually compose from the chord progression and phrasing angle which leads to no one listening evidently.
Danny and proponents of the 'rhythm section' idea... this is a pipedream for me! :D
the Thorun band I play in, the bass pretty much follows the guitar lines constantly. If I come up with a riff, they'll play the same, so we pretty much always play the same. Every now and then I'll go off on a different riff, making sure that I'm in the same key and check that everyone thinks it
sounds okay
...but when it comes to locking in with the bass drum... not going to happen. Our drummer is too busy doing his own thing that if I tried to play bass to his bass drum, my bass would sound like Primus and the music would be nothing like what it is. I can only hope that he hits the bass drum 'on the 1' or so, so at least we get that phat hit and keep a groove going. I suggested once that we should try and lock in sometimes and he looked at me like I'd asked for a free go on his mum.
However, we do do a lot of that Bootsy Collins on the 1 Funk thang. mang. and it's down tuned so basically all we ever play is B. B... B... (more fucking) B... ;D
You should ask him for a free go on his mum, just to verify the look.
I def make up for my lack of input as a bass player by being the benevolent dictator for Ocean of Stars
I wrote the music on all instruments on my own time. Assembled the players. Found an awesome sax player in lieu of second guitar.
Once I got the band together I then had to decide how strictly do I want to stick to the original arrangements.
Felt best to let the music take on a life of its own and use the original recordings as a framework. The drummer I have is better than I'll ever be, so got to let him shine haha. I usually give some direction, even suggest specific kick/snare patterns for specific parts. But let him breathe with it.
Bass as well, give direction for specific parts but let her find her own groove with others. She's still learning and open to any suggestions and tips, but she does a great job and I don't have to think about the bass when we're playing.
The sax player was the wild card. He's good about rolling with my constant revisions. Which is either from letting the songs take on a life of their own, or from working on arrangements and trying to figure out who's going to do what between him and I. Some songs we've switched parts back and forth a few times. But he also has lots of room for solos and using effects to make all kindsa weird space noises.
But at the end of the day it's pretty much my music and my band. And I feeling really fortunate to have assembled some real good players/people who dig the music a lot and trust my judgement haha
Quote from: Danny G on August 29, 2014, 10:03:19 AM
I def make up for my lack of input as a bass player by being the benevolent dictator for Ocean of Stars
I wrote the music on all instruments on my own time. Assembled the players. Found an awesome sax player in lieu of second guitar.
Once I got the band together I then had to decide how strictly do I want to stick to the original arrangements.
Felt best to let the music take on a life of its own and use the original recordings as a framework. The drummer I have is better than I'll ever be, so got to let him shine haha. I usually give some direction, even suggest specific kick/snare patterns for specific parts. But let him breathe with it.
Bass as well, give direction for specific parts but let her find her own groove with others. She's still learning and open to any suggestions and tips, but she does a great job and I don't have to think about the bass when we're playing.
The sax player was the wild card. He's good about rolling with my constant revisions. Which is either from letting the songs take on a life of their own, or from working on arrangements and trying to figure out who's going to do what between him and I. Some songs we've switched parts back and forth a few times. But he also has lots of room for solos and using effects to make all kindsa weird space noises.
But at the end of the day it's pretty much my music and my band. And I feeling really fortunate to have assembled some real good players/people who dig the music a lot and trust my judgement haha
at some point you cross the line where they get to take some ownership of the music too. their contributions will creep into things the longer you guys stay together..eventually the scales tip..