So in another thread, the Hovercraft was recommended and described as a "20W stoner doom machine built from a used Jet City". What exactly does this mean? I know lots of folks like the Baxandall tone stack/FAC switch setup based on Oranges and Matamps, but why is this the preferred setup? Model Ts are based on Marshall/tweed Bassmans, no Bax or FAC (I guess one of the versions of the T had a Bax and an active mid section), lots of folks play Ampegs, Bassman heads, Marshall 2203/2204, Laney Supergroup/Klipp/AOR, Soldano, Peavey solid state, etc. I guess my question is: what makes that topology the archetype for heavy music, when so many people use other amps? Am I missing something?
I understand Sunn Model Ts were loud and affordable, along with other American and Brit heads. I've always seen Orange and Matamp as pretty exclusive, so I wonder if it's more of a fashion statement, or is there something in that design that lends itself to heavy music? I'm talking about folks in this genre playing amps based on "classic" OR and GT circuts, not skinny emo kids playing Rockerverbs. I'm curious how Orange wasn't considered R'n'B backline (Stevie Wonder used them) or Matamp as "blues lawyer" amp (Peter Green used a Series 2000).
The player makes it. Any cleanish amp can be used with heavy fuzz for 1 thing for an amp win amp gain it varies with playing type I can't get to detailed I'm on my ipod
The player behind the amp make it what it is.
Lucifer's tone stack.
Basically, it started as... as cheap as possible. 100w+ heads were undesirable to most normal folks, so they were cheap...
If player wishes just to use amp gain then I'd say tailor it to the sound which is what I do for my faint models but for pedal players it doesn't matter so much
I agree with the others for the most part, especially that many clean"ish" amps work well with pedals, and there are good heavy tones easily achievable. I'm more of a rock player, but I do toy with stoner and doom type tones.
I haven't played a whole lot of different amps, but the best of what I've tried has a really good sounding tone stack and functional eq abilities.
Good sounding, as in it suits my ears for what I'm trying to achieve. A really trebly amp will never satisfy me the way a beefier sounding one will. I also desire a sweet midrange "voice".
Functional, because with so many amps you go to turn a knob and you can't hear any difference in tone. My v4 rules for this. The tone knobs work really well.
I'm going to guess that you're probably in your early 20's or younger. In the early 90's Orange/Matamp gear was damn cheap because everyone wanted high gain channel switchers or modified Marshall's. I remember seeing an OR120 full stack at a notoriously expensive shop for $900...if I had the cash I probably could have walked out the door with it for $700.
Also, I'm just not buying that anything other than a doom practice amp exists at 20-watts.
Lots of headroom, 6550's, KT88's, able to handle C or lower tunings. Usually not Marshall's with EL34's which are better for R'N'R.
Another easy thing that can help a lot for thick tones is using your neck pup or adjusting the tone volume on your bridge pup.
Quote from: Baltar on June 11, 2012, 09:32:47 PM
Lots of headroom, 6550's, KT88's, able to handle C or lower tunings. Usually not Marshall's with EL34's which are better for R'N'R.
Objection your honour, you can pull 200W from a quad of EL34's, it's the iron and the amp design that holds you back ;D
For the record, I've heard stoner tones from, a Peavey Blazer, a solid state Fender, and an open back Peavey Classic combo (with my fuzz pedal).
Never belittle the one true pentode ;)
And eq pedals. They change things fast. Remove or add treble bite, add gobs of low end easy, whatever you want.
well, i have an or120, and i've owned\played a lot of amps in my day, from fenders to marshalls, to sunn etc....for me, the orange or matamp is the best for stoner\doom. Tons of low end, lots of mids, not great high end. The natural break-up\od is distinct, yet still articulate, it doesn't sound like a wall of fucking distortion. I can play chords, and you can tell what I am playing. Also, it is fucking loud as shit.
If you want chime, and nice cleans, it is not for you. Sunn amps you can get a pretty decent clean\chime, but not with old oranges\matamp in my experience. At times I really miss owning a fender, and miss that nice sparkly tone, but only now and again. You really just can't beat (for doom or stoner rock) an awesome, high gain amp that gives you natural distortion. It's kind of a one trick pony, but what a pony. I will never part with my or120. It rattles your bones, and has tone for days.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/aefc8676-ab37-9ba2.jpg)
^^^^stoner doom amp
Depression, anger, weed. Anything else is window dressing.
Quote from: The Riffer on June 11, 2012, 10:38:44 PM
Depression, anger, weed. Anything else is window dressing.
Done.
I'll take 80% playing style and 20% help from gear for 200, Alex
.......on weed
It's the tuning, you start tuning your guitar down and now matter what you are playing through it will become more and more doomy the lower you go.
Quote from: Hemisaurus on June 11, 2012, 10:11:43 PM
Quote from: Baltar on June 11, 2012, 09:32:47 PM
Lots of headroom, 6550's, KT88's, able to handle C or lower tunings. Usually not Marshall's with EL34's which are better for R'N'R.
Objection your honour, you can pull 200W from a quad of EL34's, it's the iron and the amp design that holds you back ;D
For the record, I've heard stoner tones from, a Peavey Blazer, a solid state Fender, and an open back Peavey Classic combo (with my fuzz pedal).
Never belittle the one true pentode ;)
Very true, but I haven't met a lot of guys that super-mod out their JCM's with Merc iron or whatever. But, good point bro.
El84 ef86 also pentodes just for measure
It all depends on ur approach ppl usually start with I want to stet xyz sound instead of what can I get from this amp
I would say that the vast majority of doom albums have been recorded with EL34 loaded guitar amps or were you referring to bass amps Baltsr?
So this is what I learned:
1. Beam tetrodes, not pentodes (for the most part)
2. Oranges were cheap. I never realized that. Maybe not in the US? That was Ampeg/Sunn/Acoustic.
3. It ain't so much about the preamp.
4. Playing style first, volume second.
BTW, I'm 37. When I went to college in Eugene, OR, I remember $300 used Sunn Model Ts at the Buy'n'Sell Center. I was broke at the time/living in a dorm, so that didn't work.
Thanks to all who clarified. I just didn't understand the whole 20 watt Hovercraft thing. Maybe if I slam a single-ended KT88 with an Orange preamp, I'll have the Doom Bathroom amp.
Quote from: SoupKitchen on June 12, 2012, 10:55:22 AM
So this is what I learned:
1. Beam tetrodes, not pentodes (for the most part)
2. Oranges were cheap. I never realized that. Maybe not in the US? That was Ampeg/Sunn/Acoustic.
3. It ain't so much about the preamp.
4. Playing style first, volume second.
BTW, I'm 37. When I went to college in Eugene, OR, I remember $300 used Sunn Model Ts at the Buy'n'Sell Center. I was broke at the time/living in a dorm, so that didn't work.
Thanks to all who clarified. I just didn't understand the whole 20 watt Hovercraft thing. Maybe if I slam a single-ended KT88 with an Orange preamp, I'll have the Doom Bathroom amp.
Don't underestimate that Hovercraft head, my friend...
Mostly its about lots of power for cheap. Then when people get derivative, they go for what someone else got because it was lots of power for cheap, making them not cheap any more.
If a Matamp isn't doing good clean, it is broken. They are made to be clean machines.
genres genres genres...
doom (most people mean doom metal / heavy metal ) is super heavy downtuned music, borderline metal. if ur downtuning to C and playing really slow, ur gonna need LOTs o Watts, otherwise it sounds weak, even if mic'd... so 100 watt behemoths not used for shredding fit the bill here that are bass heavy.
stoner is more classic rock sounding, it is heavy rock! it isn't even on mapofmetal.com ! heh use mapofmetal.com for beginnerz to figure out the genres....you can downtune but your amp needs a lot of bass still, so most 50 watters are not gonna cut it live without micing it but are ok for band practice. fortunately most clubs mike the amps these days so you dont have to FRY your most important music gear: your ears :)
I was gonna say any amp that has a couple of roach burns on the top, possibly surrounded by an Olympic symbol of old beer bottle rings, that weighs entirely too much, is entirely too loud and is delivered by a sticker covered 1990 Dodge Caravan and carried in by a Tommy Chong looking guy in a barely stitched together Sabbath shirt .....THAT is a doom/stoner rock amp.
Quote from: spookstrickland on June 12, 2012, 03:38:06 AM
It's the tuning, you start tuning your guitar down and now matter what you are playing through it will become more and more doomy the lower you go.
There are plenty of doomy tunes out there in good ol' E standard matey.
Quote from: SoupKitchen on June 12, 2012, 10:55:22 AM
Thanks to all who clarified. I just didn't understand the whole 20 watt Hovercraft thing. Maybe if I slam a single-ended KT88 with an Orange preamp, I'll have the Doom Bathroom amp.
I'm not sayin' I have extraordinarily DOOM tone, but I use a 5 watt amp on all this. Power to decibel ratios are logarithmic, it doesn't get louder very fast when you add wattage.
http://psychedelicsexorgan.bandcamp.com/track/fallopian-rainbow
Little amps can totally do doom but I just wouldn't gig with one but I would record with one and I have. When I'm working on an idea at home, sometimes I just don't want to deal with a million dB's but a good 5-watt tube head can still hit you in the chest.
It's totally old school to use a smaller amp as a tone shaper & slave it out.
Stoners & Doomers have been doing it from way back.
Quote from: mutantcolors on June 12, 2012, 10:08:05 PM
Quote from: SoupKitchen on June 12, 2012, 10:55:22 AM
Thanks to all who clarified. I just didn't understand the whole 20 watt Hovercraft thing. Maybe if I slam a single-ended KT88 with an Orange preamp, I'll have the Doom Bathroom amp.
I'm not sayin' I have extraordinarily DOOM tone, but I use a 5 watt amp on all this. Power to decibel ratios are logarithmic, it doesn't get louder very fast when you add wattage.
http://psychedelicsexorgan.bandcamp.com/track/fallopian-rainbow
that is pretty awesome!! heh my recording GAS dream of a 1/4 watt amp into a Rivera Silent Sister ISO cab lives on!
Quote from: SunnO))) on June 11, 2012, 10:36:38 PM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/aefc8676-ab37-9ba2.jpg)
^^^^stoner doom amp
Who's is that?
My buddy's, I'm tryin' to get it sold for him. Videos of it in the new gear acq. thread.
I use a 70w amp for bass. The watts thing is BS.
Depends on if ur playing with 2 other guitarists who also use 100W full stacks, 70W on bass would get drowned without a very dedicated cab setup.
70w is plenty loud enough. I just have a nice cab. SPL doesn't come from watts. 100w full stacks already tells you said guitarists won't have any idea how to EQ and are more into big dick competing with each other. I they wanna get stupid I get my kilowatt Matamp out. But for the most part 70w is enough.
The guy I was talking to was asking for the following:
- budget of around $400-$500 CAD.
- sounds like vintage Model T, V4, Matamp, etc.
- "I like my eardrums"
- "I've been eyeing the Jet City JCA22H as it's the closest thing to a Soldano for $400"
I recommended the Hovercraft because it's cheap enough and loud enough for recording, possibly loud enough to jam with a friend on drums or whatever with the right cab. Also recommended looking for a used 100W Laney AOR if wattage is going to be an issue. $500 Canadian is not much to work with.
I called it a "doom" amp because they are voiced for lots of low mids and low end. I didn't recommend a digital modelling amp or a metal amp that has max distortion and scooped mids or a blues combo with reverb and a chiming high end because I don't feel inspired to play low, slow, chugging music on those amps.
If he's Canadian there should be old Traynors around. You gotta go with the local surplus, if you're looking for a deal. You can find 100 watt Traynors in the US for about 500 bucks. They are supposedly pretty rugged amps.
IMO, 100 watts for a doom amp is good. Most people use pedals for dirt, it's good to have plenty of volume on tap, and it really helps (IMO) if you are able to achieve scary volume levels. If it's loud enough to physically feel it, you are rockin'. Yes, you can possibly get the same tones with a low wattage amp, but you can't necessarily take peoples' breath away (depending on the size of the room) and I think that is an advantage. Volume is part of the formula, IMO.
The need for loads of bottom is heavily determined by if you have a bassist or not. Let them cover that if you do.
lots of wattage followed by EL34's or 6550's, single channel, and cheap.
I feel like I can get away with 50 watts but maybe i'll reconsider when I am competing with a bassist pushing 300 and another guitarist pushing out 100 .
I thought that Marshall's original wattage rating system, or something, was inaccurate? So 50 watts is actually putting out closer to 70 something watts and that 100 watt Marshalls were actually putting out over 120 watts????
In the South, we have whatcha call the "Missippi Marshall." Peavey. Peavey anything will get you decent doom on a budget.
America's Hat, AKA Canadia has those Traynors, Garnets and whatnot... Those are yer locals. Northwest? Sunn. New Mexico? Socal? Boogies.
Marshall is everywhere, most of them are getting pretty damn cheap, too...
Quote from: Instant Dan on June 13, 2012, 06:11:29 PM
lots of wattage followed by EL34's or 6550's, single channel, and cheap.
I feel like I can get away with 50 watts but maybe i'll reconsider when I am competing with a bassist pushing 300 and another guitarist pushing out 100 .
I thought that Marshall's original wattage rating system, or something, was inaccurate? So 50 watts is actually putting out closer to 70 something watts and that 100 watt Marshalls were actually putting out over 120 watts????
Wattage ratings are supposed to be at a given total harmonic distortion (thd), might have noticed Marshalls get dirty easily even on the clean so it knocks down the power output rating at a low THD, the peak is at a high THD. One of the many reasons watt ratings aren't very useful.
I can pump out doom tone with my 17 watt Diabolical all day long. It isn't as loud as my higher wattage amps though but has a mid presence that cuts nicely. I have paired it with my friends Dual Rec on stage and had no problem hearing myself, being heard and killing it tone wise. Of course, we weren't playing doom on that stage but hey...
You can use anything, just play it loud.
Foxen, what cab are you running your 70 w through? I missed it if you mentioned it.
Quote from: Pissy on June 24, 2012, 10:59:15 AM
Foxen, what cab are you running your 70 w through? I missed it if you mentioned it.
http://barefacedbass.com/product-range/super-fifteen.htm
When I get the opportunity to use my full rig, the 70w one goes through a 4x12 guitar cab and I use its bigger brother thats 140w to run the bass into the Super 15. The two channels on the 70w having separate parallel inputs means I can do my whole stereo ouput thing into one amp though (the 140w one has two clean channels).
Edit: with 70w that's around 124 db, and peaks a little more, it has pretty beefy power filtering.
Quote from: clockwork green on June 12, 2012, 10:22:21 AM
I would say that the vast majority of doom albums have been recorded with EL34 loaded guitar amps or were you referring to bass amps Baltsr?
Not really, I was thinking of Wino and his Model T. Sorry just noticed this. I always thought 6550/KT88 had more low end. Cheers.
Yea 88s bigger low end 34s sweeter midranger
88's definitely have the bigger low end...I was just saying that the vast majority of guitar amps used in stoner/doom bands will have EL34's (probably followed by 6L6's) while only a few are really using KT88's. This would just be a numbers thing since there are so few guitar amps really running on KT88's or 6550's....there really aren't that many Model T's out there compared to Plexi's, JCM800's, Orange's, Laney's, Hiwatt's, Matamp's, Mesa's etc...
Right on.
i think its more of economic reasons than anything y EL34s were big in traditional doomy amps, 34s were cheap in Britain while Kt88s were not as cheap.
I'd put 6550s in most anything I got. 800s with 6550s sound gorgeous.